Citation and alternates-brainstorming

Aloha folks,

There hasn't been much lately regarding the 'alternates'
discussion[1]. It seems that in the HTML spec[2],
'alternate' is meant
as something the user can choose between, i.e., style
sheets[3],
and/or something the browser can try and render in a given
rank order,
i.e., objects[4]. The suggested use of <ol> for
preference and <ul>
for no preference is clever[1].

(this example modified from the wiki entry[1])

<ol class="alternates">
  <li><a href="example.mp3"
rel="enclosure alternate"
type="audio/mpeg">MP3</a></li>
  <li><a href="example.wav"
rel="enclosure alternate"
type="audio/wav">WAV</a></li>
  <li><a href="example.mov"
rel="enclosure alternate"
type="video/quicktime">MOV</a></li>

</ol>

Another option may be to try and and bring up alternates to
the level
of each being an hentry of an overall hfeed[5]. While that
might
provide greater facility to allow for various metadata
around a given
alternate (e.g., video vs. audio vs. format size, or even
abbreviated
vs. longer versions of content), the simple uses cases may
become a
bit stretched.

Any thoughts?

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/alternates-brainstorming
[2] http://www
.w3.org/TR/html4/index/list.html
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/styles.html#di
dx-style_sheet
[4] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#edef-OB
JECT
[5] http://microformat
s.org/wiki/hatom

-- 
Sincerely,
Jeff McNeill
http://jeffmcneill.com/
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Hi Jeff,

Alternates was an exploration of a particular pattern that
really
hasn't been picked up yet by a uF that's made it all the way
through
the process, though I believe will be of some utility in the
future --
i.e. kind of the situation we are having with hItem.

I'm not sure what direct utility it would have at the
hentry/hfeed
level in hAtom -- nothing in my research suggested people
were doing
these sorts of things. Within an entry, it could be used to
express
(for example) alternate versions of the same media file in
different
formats. In fact, I believe that's how it got started.

Regards, etc...

On 10/26/07, Jeff McNeill <jeffjeffmcneill.com> wrote:
> Aloha folks,
>
> There hasn't been much lately regarding the
'alternates'
> discussion[1]. It seems that in the HTML spec[2],
'alternate' is meant
> as something the user can choose between, i.e., style
sheets[3],
> and/or something the browser can try and render in a
given rank order,
> i.e., objects[4]. The suggested use of <ol> for
preference and <ul>
> for no preference is clever[1].
>
> (this example modified from the wiki entry[1])
>
> <ol class="alternates">
>   <li><a href="example.mp3"
rel="enclosure alternate"
>
type="audio/mpeg">MP3</a></li>
>   <li><a href="example.wav"
rel="enclosure alternate"
> type="audio/wav">WAV</a></li>
>   <li><a href="example.mov"
rel="enclosure alternate"
>
type="video/quicktime">MOV</a></li>

> </ol>
>
> Another option may be to try and and bring up
alternates to the level
> of each being an hentry of an overall hfeed[5]. While
that might
> provide greater facility to allow for various metadata
around a given
> alternate (e.g., video vs. audio vs. format size, or
even abbreviated
> vs. longer versions of content), the simple uses cases
may become a
> bit stretched.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/alternates-brainstorming
> [2] http://www
.w3.org/TR/html4/index/list.html
> [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/styles.html#di
dx-style_sheet
> [4] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#edef-OB
JECT
> [5] http://microformat
s.org/wiki/hatom
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> Jeff McNeill
> http://jeffmcneill.com/
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.bl
ogmatrix.com
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ts-discuss

In message
<519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706mail.gmail.com>, 
Jeff McNeill <jeffjeffmcneill.com> writes

>There hasn't been much lately regarding the 'alternates'
discussion
[...]
>Any thoughts?

What's the use-case?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
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Aloha Andy, et al,

Use cases for alternates could be as follows:

1. Amazon.com page on a book with alternate versions, e.g.,
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0789723107/re
f=cm_cr_pr_orig_subj

2. TED.com talks, which include links to mp4, zipped mp4 and
itunes,
e.g., http://
www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/51

3. New York Times, which include links to single-page and
print
versions of articles, e.g.,
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/business/13fed.html

In particular, I am seeking a solution that can deal with
different
filetypes (audio vs. video) as well as content length.

Let me include part of the original post:

There hasn't been much lately regarding the 'alternates'
discussion[1]. It seems that in the HTML spec[2],
'alternate' is meant
as something the user can choose between, i.e., style
sheets[3],
and/or something the browser can try and render in a given
rank order,
i.e., objects[4]. The suggested use of <ol> for
preference and <ul>
for no preference is clever[1].

(this example modified from the wiki entry[1])

<ol class="alternates">
 <li><a href="example.mp3"
rel="enclosure alternate"
type="audio/mpeg">MP3</a></li>
 <li><a href="example.wav"
rel="enclosure alternate"
type="audio/wav">WAV</a></li>
 <li><a href="example.mov"
rel="enclosure alternate"
type="video/quicktime">MOV</a></li>

</ol>

-- 
Sincerely,
Jeff McNeill
http://jeffmcneill.com/


On 12/12/07, Andy Mabbett <andypigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:
> In message
<519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706mail.gmail.com>,
> Jeff McNeill <jeffjeffmcneill.com> writes
>
> >There hasn't been much lately regarding the
'alternates' discussion
> [...]
> >Any thoughts?
>
> What's the use-case?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
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ts-discuss

On Thu, December 13, 2007 09:27, Jeff McNeill wrote:

> Use cases for alternates could be as follows:

[...]

Thank you. That explains what "alternates" are;
but not how the proposed
microformat would be /used/. In other words, what would a
user agent *do*
with them?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

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Hello Microformaters,

* A user-agent could at the least identify one or more
alternate
formats for the current item or a linked item.

* It could also identify the order of preference of
alternates.

* This could be used by microformat-aware search to provide
search
result links to alternates.

* This could also be used to support mirror lists (instead
of
alternate formats, simply alternate locations), this could
then be
used by a user agent to download/retrieve by picking from
the top of
the preferred list or among a list of non-preferred
(unordered)
locations.

* It may be possible for a user-agent to be aware of a
format
preference in the case of alternate formats or application
support,
such as preference for certain kinds of media readers, e.g.,
iTunes
itpc:// links vs. mp4 downloads.

Let me know if this answers the question. Not quite sure
the
format/content being looked for in terms of user-agent use.

Cheers,

-- 
Sincerely,
Jeff McNeill
http://jeffmcneill.com/


On 12/13/07, Andy Mabbett <andypigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:
> On Thu, December 13, 2007 09:27, Jeff McNeill wrote:
>
> > Use cases for alternates could be as follows:
>
> [...]
>
> Thank you. That explains what "alternates"
are; but not how the proposed
> microformat would be /used/. In other words, what would
a user agent *do*
> with them?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> ** via webmail **
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>
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On Dec 13, 2007 12:44 PM, Robert O'Rourke <robsanchothefat.com> wrote:

>
> Perhaps in the case of a podcast or video blog you
could tell your
> feed-reader what format you prefer and it would grab
the right file.
> That's one possibility but I don't know of anyone who
does
> podcasts/video blogs in multiple formats.
>

This is exactly why it was created, though the project it
was
associated with at the time faltered. I think this is more
like hItem
-- the research is done (I believe) -- and just waiting the
day it
will be needed elsewhere. I don't particularly think it's
worth
pursuing on it's own.

Regards, etc...

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.bl
ogmatrix.com
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On Thu, December 13, 2007 12:44 pm, Robert O'Rourke wrote:
> Perhaps in the case of a podcast or video blog you
could tell your
> feed-reader what format you prefer and it would grab
the right file.
> That's one possibility but I don't know of anyone who
does
> podcasts/video blogs in multiple formats.

We do, 'we' being my $DAYJOB at http://blip.tv/.

I've actually been following this thread with interest
because our pages
currently contain a list of the alternate formats available
for any given
post. Some of our show creators make their episodes
available in five or
six different formats. Take a look, for example, at:

   http://blip.tv/file/50997
8/

In the bottom-right of that page you'll see a list of the
different
formats available for download. Unless I'm misreading what
'alternates' is
supposed to be, that's a real-world example where it could
be applied and
- because we're microformats enthusiasts - certainly would
be.

Angus

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Aloha,

Interesting that alternates was brainstormed in terms of
hItem as
mentioned previously in the thread, but also could and
perhaps should
initially apply to citation. If I understand the citation
discussion
at http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-irc-note
s-2006-04-09#Summary
an alternate would be a reference and could therefore be a
part of the
citation discussion. I appreciate the comment that
description could
be a superset of reference, but need not be determined by
the
reference (citation) mf.

-- 
Sincerely,
Jeff McNeill
http://jeffmcneill.com/


On 12/13/07, Angus McIntyre <anguspobox.com> wrote:
> On Thu, December 13, 2007 12:44 pm, Robert O'Rourke
wrote:
> > Perhaps in the case of a podcast or video blog you
could tell your
> > feed-reader what format you prefer and it would
grab the right file.
> > That's one possibility but I don't know of anyone
who does
> > podcasts/video blogs in multiple formats.
>
> We do, 'we' being my $DAYJOB at http://blip.tv/.
>
> I've actually been following this thread with interest
because our pages
> currently contain a list of the alternate formats
available for any given
> post. Some of our show creators make their episodes
available in five or
> six different formats. Take a look, for example, at:
>
>    http://blip.tv/file/50997
8/
>
> In the bottom-right of that page you'll see a list of
the different
> formats available for download. Unless I'm misreading
what 'alternates' is
> supposed to be, that's a real-world example where it
could be applied and
> - because we're microformats enthusiasts - certainly
would be.
>
> Angus
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>
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