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Thread: Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simp




Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simp
country flaguser name
United Kingdom
2008-01-03 11:00:08

One of the microformat principles is (while not expressed in
so many
words) that we should make life easier for publishers, and
load work
onto parsers, instead.

There are a great many pages where a vCard is, or could be
applied to a
single data-value (such as a name) in prose, or a table,
without further
attributes being present; for example:

        ...as John Smith said...

Currently, that would require:

        as <span class="vcard"><span
class="fn">John
Smith</span></span>
        said

which is a considerable amount of mark-up, compared to the
actual data,
and significantly bloats a page on which many such name
appear.

Other examples might be:

        ...lived in Birmingham since 2005...

        ...developed by Acme Inc. using cheese...


It has previously been proposed that:

        as <span class="vcard fn">John
Smith</span> said

be allowed, but that has been rejected; not least because it
might break
existing microformats.


We could simply declare, in the manner of
implied-n-optimisation, that
an hCard with no children:

        as <span class="vcard">John
Smith</span> said

defaults to the equivalent of the full mark-up as used
above. Still,
this again might break existing hCards, and could only apply
in one case
(for an implied "fn", in this example), so must be
rejected.


What we could do, though is create a LIMITED NUMBER of
sub-microformats
(effectively, new microformats based on exiting
microformats; I'd call
them "nanoformats", if that name was not already
taken), using the name
and an attribute from one of those exiting microformats as
the new
sub-microformat name.


We would have to be certain that these were limited to cases
where vast
numbers of the relevant data items are published, and where
the parsing
rules are unambiguous.

Such parsing rules might be:

   *    <span class="vcard-fn">John
Smith</span>

        (treat content as fn within vCard; apply
n-optimisation if
        appropriate)

   *    <a class="vcard-fn"
href="example.com">John Smith</a>

        (treat content as fn within vCard; apply
n-optimisation if
        appropriate, use URL)

   *    <a class="vcard-fn"
href="mailto:johnexample.com">
        John Smith</a>

        (treat content as fn within vCard; apply
n-optimisation if
        appropriate, use e-mail address)


Further examples might be for organisations:

   *    <span class="vcard-org">Acme
Inc.</span>

        (vcard; with fn, and org, both set to "Acme
Inc."; also used
        with href as above)

and for places:

   *    <span
class="vcard-locality">Birmingham</span>

        (vcard; with fn, and adr's locality, both set to
"Birmingham")

   *    <span
class="vcard-region">Texas</span>

        (vcard; with fn, and adr's region, both set to
"Texas")

[In each of the above pair, "vcard-" could be
replaced with "adr-" and
parsed accordingly.]


Note again that I am NOT suggesting that all microformat
attributes be
combinable in this manner; only a select few, which are
deemed necessary
and agreed by consensus (perhaps only those shown above,
plus a few
other adr-children; though the pattern could also apply to
other,
upcoming microformats).

Benefits of using a single, unambiguously-named, class on a
singe
element for simple, single-value data types will include
ease of use for
publishers; and more widespread usage of semantic mark-up.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
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Re: Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for
country flaguser name
United States
2008-01-03 11:23:53
Andy Mabbett wrote:
> We could simply declare, in the manner of
implied-n-optimisation, that
> an hCard with no children:
>
>         as <span class="vcard">John
Smith</span> said
>
>
>   
Why use the semantics of an electronic business cards
standard to tag an 
entity's name? isn't this an example of hammering
unfit-for-hcard 
content into hcard?

To me, if there is value in tagging and extracting entities
from 
narrative Web content, it is a different problem than
extracting contact 
information from a structured Web contact card, and as a
result probably 
deserves its own class attributes, and maybe a microformat
if that usage 
is widespread enough.

For now, in the example above the only thing that would make
sense to me 
is an <href> link pointing to an anchor/id in the
same/different page 
that would contain John Smith's contact information.

Guillaume

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Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simp
country flaguser name
United Kingdom
2008-01-03 12:40:16
In message <477D1A29.10202brixlogic.com>,
Guillaume Lebleu 
<glbrixlogic.com> writes

>Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> We could simply declare, in the manner of
implied-n-optimisation, that
>> an hCard with no children:
>>
>>         as <span class="vcard">John
Smith</span> said

>>
>Why use the semantics of an electronic business cards
standard to tag 
>an entity's name?

Because they're the most appropriate semantics; and because
people are 
already using the long-hand version of hCard to do so.

vCard is an electronic business cards standard; hCard is not
merely an 
electronic business cards standard, but already has wider
uses.

I'm not suggesting a new use of those semantics; I'm merely
suggesting a 
more efficient way of using them.

>isn't this an example of hammering unfit-for-hcard
content into hcard?

Clearly, I don't think so.

>To me, if there is value in tagging and extracting
entities from 
>narrative Web content, it is a different problem than
extracting 
>contact information from a structured Web contact card,
and as a result 
>probably deserves its own class attributes, and maybe a
microformat if 
>that usage is widespread enough.

Are you suggesting that we use different class-names to mark
up the same 
data? That's directly in contravention of the microformat
"principles"; 
and would put more weight back onto the shoulders of
publishers.

>For now, in the example above the only thing that would
make sense to 
>me is an <href> link pointing to an anchor/id in
the same/different 
>page that would contain John Smith's contact
information.

Who says that that information is one the page in question?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
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Re: Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for
user name
2008-01-03 15:07:59
On Jan 4, 2008 6:00 AM, Andy Mabbett <andypigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> There are a great many pages where a vCard is, or could
be applied to a
> single data-value (such as a name) in prose, or a
table, without further
> attributes being present; for example:
>
>         ...as John Smith said...
>
> Currently, that would require:
>
>         as <span class="vcard"><span
class="fn">John
Smith</span></span>
>         said
>
> which is a considerable amount of mark-up, compared to
the actual data,
> and significantly bloats a page on which many such name
appear.
>
> Other examples might be:
>
>         ...lived in Birmingham since 2005...
>
>         ...developed by Acme Inc. using cheese...

What if the include pattern could be used without having to
be inside an hcard?
    as <span class="fn"
id="john-smith-name">John Smith</span>
said

-- 
Paul Wilkins
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Re: Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for
country flaguser name
United Kingdom
2008-01-03 15:44:37
Hello Paul, Andy...

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:07 +1300, Paul Wilkins wrote:
> What if the include pattern could be used without
having to be inside
> an hcard?
>     as <span class="fn"
id="john-smith-name">John Smith</span>
said 

You could wrap it in item:

<span class="item">
<span class="fn"
id="john-smith-name">John Smith</span>
</span>

would the class-include work then?

Martin

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Re: Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for
country flaguser name
United Kingdom
2008-01-03 16:08:11
On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 21:44 +0000, Martin McEvoy wrote:
> You could wrap it in item:
> 
> <span class="item">
> <span class="fn"
id="john-smith-name">John Smith</span>
> </span>
> 
> would the class-include work then? 

Operator and Tails don't have any issues with wrapping fn in
an Item and
using the class include

http://webor
ganics.co.uk/files/test.html


x2v on the other hand chokes... er may need some
"tweeking" to get it to
work.


Thanks

Martin


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Re: Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for
user name
2008-01-03 16:19:58
On 03/01/2008, Martin McEvoy <martinweborganics.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 21:44 +0000, Martin McEvoy
wrote:
> > You could wrap it in item:
> >
> > <span class="item">
> > <span class="fn"
id="john-smith-name">John Smith</span>
> > </span>
> >
> > would the class-include work then?
>
> Operator and Tails don't have any issues with wrapping
fn in an Item and
> using the class include
>
> http://webor
ganics.co.uk/files/test.html
>
>
> x2v on the other hand chokes... er may need some
"tweeking" to get it to
> work.

--- this is an issue with the description of the include
pattern. X2V
will only look at encodings that are children of an ID, not
at the
same level.

The following should work because it will find the node with
the ID
and then find FN as a child:

<span class="item"
id="john-smith-name">
<span class="fn">John Smith</span>
</span>

If we want to continue this conversation, it should be done
on the dev-list

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
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Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simp
country flaguser name
United Kingdom
2008-01-03 16:55:36
In message <1199396677.22696.2.camellocalhost.localdomain>, Martin 
McEvoy <martinweborganics.co.uk> writes

>On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:07 +1300, Paul Wilkins wrote:
>> What if the include pattern could be used without
having to be inside
>> an hcard?
>>     as <span class="fn"
id="john-smith-name">John Smith</span>
said
>
>You could wrap it in item:
>
><span class="item">
><span class="fn"
id="john-smith-name">John Smith</span>
</span>
>
>would the class-include work then?

That seems to be more bloated than the problem it sets out
to solve...

-- 
Andy Mabbett
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hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentative proposal...)
country flaguser name
United Kingdom
2008-01-03 17:04:14
In message <477D3A36.7030300brixlogic.com>,
Guillaume Lebleu
<glbrixlogic.com> writes

>Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> Because they're the most appropriate semantics;
>I don't agree with that, but I'm not going to argue
about it.
>> and because people are already using the long-hand
version of hCard
>>to  do so.
>>
>> vCard is an electronic business cards standard;
hCard is not merely
>>an  electronic business cards standard, but already
has wider uses.

>Ok, I didn't know that.

The hCard spec says that:

        hCard is a simple, open, distributed format for
representing
        people, companies, organizations, and places, using
a 1:1
        representation of vCard (RFC2426) properties and
values

note that's NOT:

        hCard is a 1:1 representation of [a] vCard...

For clarity, the former can be distilled to:

        hCard is for representing people, companies,
organizations, and
        places

>In addition, my experience in other communities is that
favoring reuse
>over semantic precision can result in very difficult
machine processing
>(due to disambiguation requirements)
[...]

I don't think my proposal, or the use outlined above,
reduces semantic
precision. Note also that the *only* required property for
an hCard is
"fn".

>I just think that the "John Smith" in your
example "...as John Smith
>said in..." is different data than in "My
contact information:
><br/>John Smith <br/>Cell: (415) ...".
[...]

No. It *is* the same data. That's the crux of the matter.

>In other words, I would be perfectly happy to simply
microformat "...as
>John Smith said in..." as "... as <span
class="fn n">John Smith</span>
>said in...". I don't see the value of prefixing fn
and n by vcard.
>
>I'm probably missing something though, if so, let me
know.

That the classes "fn" and/or "n" might
already be used, with different
(or no) semantic meaning, to style the page in question?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
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Re: Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for
country flaguser name
United Kingdom
2008-01-03 17:45:53
On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 22:55 +0000, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> In message <1199396677.22696.2.camellocalhost.localdomain>, Martin 
> McEvoy <martinweborganics.co.uk> writes
> 
> >On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:07 +1300, Paul Wilkins
wrote:
> >> What if the include pattern could be used
without having to be inside
> >> an hcard?
> >>     as <span class="fn"
id="john-smith-name">John Smith</span>
said
> >
> >You could wrap it in item:
> >
> ><span class="item">
> ><span class="fn"
id="john-smith-name">John Smith</span>
</span>
> >
> >would the class-include work then?
> 
> That seems to be more bloated than the problem it sets
out to solve...

That was my thought too, not really any point , good to
cover the
possibilities though?

Martin
> 

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