Re: Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for

On Jan 4, 2008 6:02 AM, Andy Mabbett <andypigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <C3A2D4C8.1302%ryanryancannon.com>, Ryan
Cannon
> <ryanryancannon.com> writes
>
>
> >Andy Mabbett wrote:
> >> We could simply declare, in the manner of
implied-n-optimisation, that
> >> an hCard with no children ... defaults to the
equivalent of the full mark-up
> >> as used above.
> >
> >I wrote about this more than a year ago[1] and
created some wiki pages with
> >examples:
> >
> >  * http://mic
roformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied
> >  * h
ttp://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-examples
> >  * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-brainstorming

>
> So you did - I even replied on -brainstorming. (I wish
I could remember
> what happened to my memory!)
>
> As explained in my original post in this thread, I now
think that the
> specific suggestion to use
"vcard-with-no-children" is unworkable.
>
>
> >The largest problem we have to deal with is one
Brian Suda's criticism of
> >the idea
>
> Aside from Brian's issues with your specific example,
his key comment
> seemed to be:
>
>        Either #1 you are trying to save bytes (which
IMHO is not a good
>        reason) or #2 you are trying to make publishing
easier... so if
>        we are going to work under the assumption of #2
lets, try to
>        avoid the whole "HTML Bloat"
discussion.
>
> While I think bloat *is* an issue (more specifically, a
disincentive to
> publishers to use microformats), I thinks that the two
go hand in hand,
> and that this proposal does address his latter point,
of ease of
> publishing.


For what's worth, I think something along the lines of what
Andy &
Ryan C. are discussing here is a good idea, though I'm loath
to get in
a pissing match about "vcard fn" again.

Let me quote here something from a friend (who's had a fair
bit of
success in small startups over the last few years) in
response to my
question why he wasn't using XFN + hCard for a project:

| The biggest problem with microformats is that nobody gets
it.
| If I tell a programmer its an XML vocabulary, then he says
"gotch ya".
| If I tell a programmer its microformats, then he says
"micro what?"
| There's a lot of interest in microformats because its
cool, but few are
| implementing them because of the learning curve.

<span class='vcard'><span class='fn'>David
Janes</span></span> is a
pretty damned hard sell.

Regards, etc...
David



-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.bl
ogmatrix.com
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

On 1/4/08 3:59 AM, "David Janes"
<davidjanesblogmatrix.com> wrote:

> Let me quote here something from a friend (who's had a
fair bit of
> success in small startups over the last few years) in
response to my
> question why he wasn't using XFN + hCard for a
project:
> 
> | The biggest problem with microformats is that nobody
gets it.
> | If I tell a programmer its an XML vocabulary, then he
says "gotch ya".
> | If I tell a programmer its microformats, then he says
"micro what?"
> | There's a lot of interest in microformats because its
cool, but few are
> | implementing them because of the learning curve.

While we're not actively avoiding targeting programmers,
they're
(deliberately) not the primary audience for microformats.

Web designers and web authors (including folks who edit the
PHP and other
templates out there that generate most of the page views on
the web)
outnumber web programmers by 1000x (or more), and they
definitely "get" the
use of semantic HTML (aka POSH)[1] and semantic class names.
 From them the
response is more like:

| I just use *these* class names instead of making up my
own? That's easy.


> <span class='vcard'><span class='fn'>David
Janes</span></span> is a
> pretty damned hard sell.

The fact that hCard is *the* #1 format for publishing
information about a
person on the Web would seem to refute that.

http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-pr
ofiles


One thing to keep in mind, there are (still) going to be
lots of specific
communities of folks that are not convinced by microformats
(hardcore XML
programmers are the most notable example I've encountered).

That's ok.  There is no need to convince *everyone* of
microformats.

Just as in the development of microformats, 80/20 applies to
the "sell" as
well.  If someone is not convinced to use microformats, tell
them no
problem, and check back with them in 6 months to a year when
microformats
support on the Web and in applications has increased that
much more.
Eventually they'll "get it".

Aside from that, perhaps some of the web programmers who are
on this list
could write up how they were convinced on a wiki page like?

 http
://microformats.org/wiki/for-web-programmers

Tantek


[1] http://microformats
.org/wiki/POSH - this is a good litmus test for web
programmers you speak with.  If they haven't heard of
semantic HTML, start
them with a POSH education before bothering with teaching
them microformats.

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

On Jan 4, 2008 2:45 PM, Tantek Çelik <tantekcs.stanford.edu> wrote:

> The fact that hCard is *the* #1 format for publishing
information about a
> person on the Web would seem to refute that.
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-pr
ofiles

"Profiles" is not the problem that Andy & Ryan
C. are talking about:
they're talking about using hCard in casual references to
people and
places on the web. For example, on your blog, you've coded:

| My friend <a href="h
ttp://juliettemelton.com/">Julie</a> and
I
thought this up when discussing
| end of year rituals, and threw it together quickly and
roughly  in a
matter of days (like the first BarCamp).
| We invited a bunch of people (also coarsely brainstormed,
certainly
not comprehensive), a few of
| whom were actually available to attend, and shared an
incredible two
days of reflection
|  (what <em>did</em> you do) and projection
(what are you <em>going
to</em> do).

They're suggesting that you're much more likely to provide
semantic
information about "Julie" if you were willing to
do the simple
operating of adding (for example) 'class='vcard'" to
the A tag.

Regards, etc...

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.bl
ogmatrix.com

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

In semantic HTML, the right way to do this would be to use
<cite>
around the name:
<cite>Julie</cite>
so doing
<cite class="hcard" ><a href="http://juliettemelto
n.com/" class="url
uid fn"
rel="friend">Julie</a></cite>

which has an implied nickname, and adds the XFN for "my
friend"

On Jan 4, 2008 2:23 PM, David Janes <davidjanesblogmatrix.com> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 2008 2:45 PM, Tantek Çelik <tantekcs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > The fact that hCard is *the* #1 format for
publishing information about a
> > person on the Web would seem to refute that.
> >
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-pr
ofiles
>
> "Profiles" is not the problem that Andy &
Ryan C. are talking about:
> they're talking about using hCard in casual references
to people and
> places on the web. For example, on your blog, you've
coded:
>
> | My friend <a href="h
ttp://juliettemelton.com/">Julie</a> and
I
> thought this up when discussing
> | end of year rituals, and threw it together quickly
and roughly  in a
> matter of days (like the first BarCamp).
> | We invited a bunch of people (also coarsely
brainstormed, certainly
> not comprehensive), a few of
> | whom were actually available to attend, and shared an
incredible two
> days of reflection
> |  (what <em>did</em> you do) and
projection (what are you <em>going
> to</em> do).
>
> They're suggesting that you're much more likely to
provide semantic
> information about "Julie" if you were willing
to do the simple
> operating of adding (for example) 'class='vcard'"
to the A tag.
>
> Regards, etc...
>
> --
> David Janes
> Founder, BlogMatrix
> http://www.blogmatrix.com
> http://blogmatrix.bl
ogmatrix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss