That pesky abbrevation tag (yet again)

Hello,

There are couple of markup examples on the hcard examples
page which  
don't make sense semantically. The URL is
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples
#3.2.1_ADR_Type_Definition
where you can see
<div class="adr">
  <abbr class="type"
title="dom">US</abbr>
  <span class="type">home</span>
address, for
  <abbr class="type"
title="postal">mail</abbr> and
  <abbr class="type"
title="parcel">shipments</abbr>:
  <div class="street-address">123 Main
Street</div>
  <span class="locality">Any
Town</span>, <span
class="region">CA</ 
span>,
  <span
class="postal-code">91921-1234</span>
</div>

and immediately below it
Please use the following address label for
<div class="label">
  <abbr class="type"
title="dom">local delivery</abbr>
  <abbr class="type"
title="home">to my home</abbr>
  <abbr class="type"
title="postal">of mail</abbr>
  <abbr class="type"
title="parcel">and packages:</abbr>
<pre>
Mr.John Q. Public, Esq.
Mail Drop: TNE QB
123 Main Street
Any Town, CA  91921-1234
U.S.A.
</pre>
</div>

None of the <abbr> tags are being used to mark up
abbreviations,  
except maybe for 'US" where the expansion should be
'United States',  
not 'dom'.

Is there a way of setting out these examples using semantic
HTML? I'm  
worried that people, particularly those new to microfomats,
will see  
that microformats.org supports semantic HTML and thus infer
that  
examples, like these, on the wiki are written in semantic
markup.  
These, quite clearly, are not.

Cheers
Jim

Jim O'Donnell
jimeatyourgreens.org.uk
http://eatyourgreens.org.
uk
http://flickr.
com/photos/eatyourgreens



_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

As far as I know, the examples are focused more on the
"type"s that
are being used instead of semantic markup.

I wrote this bit a while ago, perhaps it can be used:
http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-examples#Use_of_dl_e
lement

I agree examples should be as semantic as possible, however
there are
many instances where the formats are not bound to any
particular
element(s) as far as semantics are concerned. For instance,
hCard
information can be presented in <address> or
<table> or <li> tags.
Therefore, it may be more appropriate to suggest that
semantic markup
should be used in context of the document.

-Sarven


On Jan 5, 2008 9:31 AM, Jim O'Donnell <jimeatyourgreens.org.uk> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> There are couple of markup examples on the hcard
examples page which
> don't make sense semantically. The URL is
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples
#3.2.1_ADR_Type_Definition
> where you can see
> <div class="adr">
>  <abbr class="type"
title="dom">US</abbr>
>  <span class="type">home</span>
address, for
>  <abbr class="type"
title="postal">mail</abbr> and
>  <abbr class="type"
title="parcel">shipments</abbr>:
>  <div class="street-address">123 Main
Street</div>
>  <span class="locality">Any
Town</span>, <span
class="region">CA</
> span>,
>  <span
class="postal-code">91921-1234</span>
> </div>
>
> and immediately below it
> Please use the following address label for
> <div class="label">
>  <abbr class="type"
title="dom">local delivery</abbr>
>  <abbr class="type"
title="home">to my home</abbr>
>  <abbr class="type"
title="postal">of mail</abbr>
>  <abbr class="type"
title="parcel">and packages:</abbr>
> <pre>
> Mr.John Q. Public, Esq.
> Mail Drop: TNE QB
> 123 Main Street
> Any Town, CA  91921-1234
> U.S.A.
> </pre>
> </div>
>
> None of the <abbr> tags are being used to mark up
abbreviations,
> except maybe for 'US" where the expansion should
be 'United States',
> not 'dom'.
>
> Is there a way of setting out these examples using
semantic HTML? I'm
> worried that people, particularly those new to
microfomats, will see
> that microformats.org supports semantic HTML and thus
infer that
> examples, like these, on the wiki are written in
semantic markup.
> These, quite clearly, are not.
>
> Cheers
> Jim
>
> Jim O'Donnell
> jimeatyourgreens.org.uk
> http://eatyourgreens.org.
uk
> http://flickr.
com/photos/eatyourgreens
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

In message 
<d4154bcf0801051110x1a34720amc7a06431da919917mail.gmail.com>, Sarven 
Capadisli <csarvengmail.com> writes

>On Jan 5, 2008 9:31 AM, Jim O'Donnell <jimeatyourgreens.org.uk> wrote:


>>  <abbr class="type"
title="dom">US</abbr>

>>  <abbr class="type"
title="parcel">shipments</abbr>:

>>  <abbr class="type"
title="dom">local delivery</abbr>

>> None of the <abbr> tags are being used to
mark up abbreviations,
>> except maybe for 'US" where the expansion
should be 'United States',
>> not 'dom'.

>I agree examples should be as semantic as possible,
however there are
>many instances where the formats are not bound to any
particular
>element(s) as far as semantics are concerned. For
instance, hCard
>information can be presented in <address> or
<table> or <li> tags.
>Therefore, it may be more appropriate to suggest that
semantic markup
>should be used in context of the document.

You're quite correct; but in microformats "title"
is only considered on 
"abbr", and where "abbr" is used, then
it should be used in accordance 
with the HTML specs, not as in the examples above.

It's long past time when this issue should have been
properly addressed, 
and fixed.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

On 5 Jan 2008, at 19:10, Sarven Capadisli wrote:

> As far as I know, the examples are focused more on the
"type"s that
> are being used instead of semantic markup.

Indeed, but people will take the code examples on the wiki
as  
examples of best practice and copy them. The w3c added
<abbr> and the  
title attribute on all elements as accessibility
enhancements to  
HTML. I think that one has to bear that in mind when giving
examples  
of how to use them in real world markup.
See h
ttp://www.w3.org/TR/html4/intro/intro.html#h-2.3.2

Is it feasible to change the hCard parsing rules so that the
content  
of title is used, if present, for class="type", no
matter which  
element the class is present on?

Jim

Jim O'Donnell
jimeatyourgreens.org.uk
http://eatyourgreens.org.
uk
http://flickr.
com/photos/eatyourgreens



_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

> Is it feasible to change the hCard parsing rules so
that the content
> of title is used, if present, for
class="type", no matter which
> element the class is present on?

It was decided to not go that way. Authors commonly have
other title
attributes in microformat sections that are not supposed to
be
interpreted as machine data. Authors would have to retrofit
their
existing code and remove existing titles from all affected
microformat
sections.

-- 
Paul Wilkins
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

On 6 Jan 2008, at 03:39, Paul Wilkins wrote:

>> Is it feasible to change the hCard parsing rules so
that the content
>> of title is used, if present, for
class="type", no matter which
>> element the class is present on?
>
> It was decided to not go that way. Authors commonly
have other title
> attributes in microformat sections that are not
supposed to be
> interpreted as machine data. Authors would have to
retrofit their
> existing code and remove existing titles from all
affected microformat
> sections.
>
So what's the way forward? Shrug our shoulders and accept
<abbr> for  
types as a kind of 'spacer-gif' for microformats? Surely
there's a  
way to solve this without encouraging authors to misuse
HTML.

Jim

Jim O'Donnell
jimeatyourgreens.org.uk
http://eatyourgreens.org.
uk
http://flickr.
com/photos/eatyourgreens



_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

In message
<18050cf90801051939l35be212bxd26cbc90c45f7f41mail.gmail.com>, Paul
Wilkins <pmw57xtra.co.nz> writes

>> Is it feasible to change the hCard parsing rules so
that the content
>> of title is used, if present, for
class="type", no matter which
>> element the class is present on?
>
>It was decided to not go that way.

Decisions can be changed.

>Authors commonly have other title attributes in
microformat sections
>that are not supposed to be interpreted as machine data.
Authors would
>have to retrofit their existing code and remove existing
titles from
>all affected microformat sections.

Not if we adopt my recent proposal, and use a prefix like:

        <foo title="data: 2008-01-06">6
January</foo>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss