RE: haudio contributor

>Why doesn't the following work for you, then?
>
><div class="haudio">
>   <span class="contributor">Primal
Scream</span> -
>   <span
class="album">Screamadelica</span>
></div>


That may be fine for someone who just wants to mark up some
tracks they like
on a personal blog ... but an artist or record store may
want to be able to
say who composed it, who performed it, who did studio
production, who
remixed it, who a guest instumentalist was, what label
released it, and
maybe even who distibutes it and want to be able to
distinguish between
them. 




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On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 01:56 +1100, Michael MD wrote:
> >Why doesn't the following work for you, then?
> >
> ><div class="haudio">
> >   <span class="contributor">Primal
Scream</span> -
> >   <span
class="album">Screamadelica</span>
> ></div>
> 
> 
> That may be fine for someone who just wants to mark up
some tracks they like
> on a personal blog ... but an artist or record store
may want to be able to
> say who composed it, who performed it, who did studio
production, who
> remixed it, who a guest instumentalist was, what label
released it, and
> maybe even who distibutes it and want to be able to
distinguish between
> them. 

Oh but you can...

<div class="haudio">
 <span
class="album">Screamadelica</span>

   <span class="contributor vcard">
   <span class="role">Artist</span> -

   <span class="fn org">Primal
Scream</span>
   </span>

   <span class="contributor vcard">
   <span class="role">Producer</span>
- 
   <span class="fn">Andrew
Weatherall</span>
   </span>

   <span class="contributor vcard">
   <span class="role">Vocals</span> -

   <span class="fn">Jah Wobble</span>
   </span>
</div>

The only thing I might add is vcard looks redundant? as the
context
describes audio, not buisness cards? 


Thanks

Martin McEvoy


> 
> 
> 
> 
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In message <200802051456.m15EueN69142proxy.syd.comcen.com.au>, Michael 
MD <mdagnspraci.com> writes

>
>>Why doesn't the following work for you, then?
>>
>><div class="haudio">
>>   <span class="contributor">Primal
Scream</span> -
>>   <span
class="album">Screamadelica</span>
>></div>
>
>
>That may be fine for someone who just wants to mark up
some tracks they 
>like on a personal blog ... but an artist or record
store may want to 
>be able to say who composed it, who performed it, who
did studio 
>production, who remixed it, who a guest instumentalist
was, what label 
>released it, and maybe even who distibutes it and want
to be able to 
>distinguish between them.

Not merely "may want to"; they do - see the Naxos
examples I posted to 
the wiki in the last 24 hours, plus discography sites like:

    <http://www.pf-roio.de/roio/roio-cd/british_winte
r_74.cd.html>

    <http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/PFAr
chives/DUKCDLP.htm>

    <http://www.discogs.com/&g
t;

      <http://www.discogs.com/search?type=all&
;q=meddle&btn=Search>

not to mention Wikipedia:

    <http://en.wik
ipedia.org/wiki/Meddle>


Some of us radicals also think it's a good idea to use
hCard...

-- 
Andy Mabbett
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In message <1202227070.9752.13.camelweborganicscouk>, Martin McEvoy 
<infoweborganics.co.uk> writes

>On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 01:56 +1100, Michael MD wrote:
>> >Why doesn't the following work for you, then?
>> >
>> ><div class="haudio">
>> >   <span
class="contributor">Primal Scream</span>
-
>> >   <span
class="album">Screamadelica</span>
>> ></div>
>>
>>
>> That may be fine for someone who just wants to mark
up some tracks they like
>> on a personal blog ... but an artist or record
store may want to be able to
>> say who composed it, who performed it, who did
studio production, who
>> remixed it, who a guest instumentalist was, what
label released it, and
>> maybe even who distibutes it and want to be able to
distinguish between
>> them.
>
>Oh but you can...
>
><div class="haudio">
> <span
class="album">Screamadelica</span>
>
>   <span class="contributor vcard">
>   <span
class="role">Artist</span> -
>   <span class="fn org">Primal
Scream</span>
>   </span>

1) that's not the model referred to in "Why doesn't the
following work 
for you, then?", above.

2) Where is the evidence, in examples like that quoted at
the top if 
this post, that people publish terms like "Artist"
when referring to the 
key creator?

>   <span class="contributor vcard">
>   <span
class="role">Producer</span> -
>   <span class="fn">Andrew
Weatherall</span>
>   </span>

How does that cater for people who use "produced
by" instead of 
"producer"?

>   <span class="contributor vcard">
>   <span
class="role">Vocals</span> -
>   <span class="fn">Jah
Wobble</span>
>   </span>

The role there is "singer" or
"vocalist", not "vocals".

>The only thing I might add is vcard looks redundant? as
the context 
>describes audio, not buisness cards?

hCard is not just for business cards. It's for "people,
organisations or 
places".

-- 
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On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 19:54 +0000, Martin McEvoy wrote:

> "vocalist", "bassist",
"drummer", "producer",
"artist" for individual

[...]

I guess most of the above "roles" are actually
"titles" their "jobs" so
to speak.

Nice learning curve I would say in that the definition of
"role" is
another grey area?

Oh well just muddied the water more, some things do need a
little
clarification as far as microformats are concerned!

PS: does anyone know WHY the entire rfc-2426 standard ported
to hcard,
It seems a lot? was there a "process" as such to
say that it should?...

http://
microformats.org/wiki/hcard-cheatsheet


Thanks

Martin McEvoy

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In message <47A8AD77.2070100sanchothefat.com>,
Robert O'Rourke 
<robsanchothefat.com> writes

>How about removing the 'contributor' class from the key
creator's 
>vcard? It would make sense to me to group contributors
separately to 
>the creator. The vcard attached to the hAudio would
denote the original 
>creator.

That would still not distinguish between "creator"
as performer (Elvis 
Presley); as composer (Mozart); or as both (Bob Dylan).

-- 
Andy Mabbett
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On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 12:29 +0000, Robert O'Rourke wrote:
> Martin McEvoy wrote:
> > Hello Robert
> >   
> 
> Hi Martin, nice meeting you the other day

Well met too its surprising the places that you meet people
;)

> 
> > On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 18:39 +0000, Robert O'Rourke
wrote:
> >   
> >> For cover tracks you'd have something like:
> >>
> >>   <span class="contributor
vcard">
> >>   <span class="role">Original
Artist</span> -
> >>   <span class="fn org">Primal
Scream</span>
> >>   </span> 
> >>     
> >
> > Here is the best action I have seen using roles,
It may be useful to the
> > discussion.
> >
> > from http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild-
reviewed
> >
> >
> > http
://www.iowamilitaryveteransband.com/members/
> >
> > their roles are the instruments that they play
> >
> > Roles are *NOT* defined in hAudio as such other
than..
> >
> > "The role attribute SHOULD be used to specify
the contributor's
> > responsibility related to the audio recording if
hCard is utilized"
> > http:
//microformats.org/wiki/haudio#Contributor
> >
> >
> > the context comes from hcard
> >
> > "Information regarding the role of the
object"
> > http://
microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes
> >
> > the "object" in most cases the person.
> >
> > whats good is, its user defined, we may be able to
give sensible hints
> > to what you put in there but really it's up to the
publisher the choice
> > is yours eg: "groupie", or "stage
hand" could be fun!.
> >
> > "original artist", "band",
"group", "quartet" are valid roles I
would
> > say
> >
> > so are
> >
> > "vocalist", "bassist",
"drummer", "producer",
"artist" for individuals
> >
> > If we had a "hPunchup" microformat you
could have a role of "looser" ;)
> >   
> 
> Ha! and a vevent for every punch. Never thought of
marking up a boxing 
> match until now!

It could be reused in hArgument? ...chuckle....

> 
> > I AM worried that we should be using
"title" instead of "role" in some
> > cases...
> >   
> 
> That depends if you look at a piece of music as having
"jobs" associated 
> with it. Is a piece of music some work that people were
employed to 
> create or only a creative endeavour?. 

In the case of manufactured "bands" I would say
that all involved are 
employed and have Job Titles... as do professional musicians
maybe.

> It can be either, but as far as 
> hAudio is concerned I would say "role" is
most appropriate. Thoughts?

I agree Roles are more important than their job titles as
the two may
not be related or have any context in the making of a piece
of audio.

I think the problem with the above is quite often in audio
roles and job
titles are quite often the same..

Manu explained the differences quite nicley to me..

A role is "what you do", where a title is
"what your
official title is at the organization".

Role is hardly ever used in hcard in the "real
world",and as a result
not much info, I think maybe more information about
"role" can be added
to the hAudio wiki, perhaps even some good recommendations?


Thanks

Martin McEvoy
> 
> > Thanks
> >
> > Martin McEvoy
> >
> >   
> 
> Cheers,
> Rob

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Martin McEvoy wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 12:29 +0000, Robert O'Rourke
wrote:
>   
>> Martin McEvoy wrote:
>>     
>>> I AM worried that we should be using
"title" instead of "role" in some
>>> cases...
>>>   
>>>       
>> That depends if you look at a piece of music as
having "jobs" associated 
>> with it. Is a piece of music some work that people
were employed to 
>> create or only a creative endeavour?. 
>>     
>
> In the case of manufactured "bands" I would
say that all involved are 
> employed and have Job Titles... as do professional
musicians maybe.
>
>   
>> It can be either, but as far as 
>> hAudio is concerned I would say "role" is
most appropriate. Thoughts?
>>     
>
> I agree Roles are more important than their job titles
as the two may
> not be related or have any context in the making of a
piece of audio.
>
> I think the problem with the above is quite often in
audio roles and job
> titles are quite often the same..
>
> Manu explained the differences quite nicley to me..
>
> A role is "what you do", where a title is
"what your
> official title is at the organization".
>   

In that case in relation to hAudio "role" is
defnitely more appropriate. 
Each individual's "title" is an arbritary thing -
say when two people 
who fulfil the same roles at two different organisations
have different 
"title"s. Everyone involved with a recording had a
"role" to play but 
not necessarily an official "title".

As a side note, is "title" only really used if
"org" has been indicated?
And are groups/bands considered to be an organisation?

Solo artists wouldn't have any particular "org"
except maybe the record 
label, in which case their "title" would be
Artist. A musician with no 
record label or contract has no employer and therefore no
official 
"title" so the use of "role" would be
better suited to the majority of 
cases.

> Role is hardly ever used in hcard in the "real
world",and as a result
> not much info, I think maybe more information about
"role" can be added
> to the hAudio wiki, perhaps even some good
recommendations?
>
>   

That would be good to see, there isn't a whole lot of detail
about the 
use of role in hcard on the wiki.

> Thanks
>
> Martin McEvoy
>   
>

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In message <47A9EFCE.5090407digitalbazaar.com>, Manu
Sporny 
<mspornydigitalbazaar.com> writes

>> It would be useful to have a
>> more blanket term for instances where one person
has multiple roles of
>> that kind.
>
>You can always specify multiple 'role's in hCard to
state that the 
>person had more than one role.

One cannot "always" specify such things, because
the page content (e.g. 
"Beethoven's Fifth") does not always spell out
such terms.

>> I know you had a problem with it but if the role
'artist' is
>> vague in so far as 'performer', 'composer' etc..
are concerned then
>> perhaps it would be useful for exactly that reason.
What do you think?
>
>I've got no problem adding more "contributor
types" as convenience 
>classes for "composer", "performer",
"publisher", "label", etc. 
>However, like all things Microformats - they've got to
be backed up by 
>examples.
>
>The issue isn't "wouldn't these be really cool to
have", but rather "we 
>need to demonstrate that there are enough of these on
the web to 
>justify adding more terms to hAudio".

Like I said a day or two ago: "for the guidance of wise
men and..."

-- 
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In message <1202304589.15850.19.camelweborganicscouk>, Martin McEvoy
<infoweborganics.co.uk> writes

>Role is hardly ever used in hcard in the "real
world"

I use it. In fact:

        <http:
//www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/bardsey/>

might include the first ever hCard with a role of
"Lighthouse keeper"!

-- 
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