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Thread: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer




Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer
country flaguser name
United Kingdom
2008-03-04 07:26:37
Hi fellers,

We're working on the next version of the BBC iPlayer and
would love to  
put some microformats in there.

Below is what I've gotten so far. In this particular
instance there's  
a single box (206x115) with an image attached. When hovered
over,  
using JavaScript, the idea is to retrieve the last 7 days of
shows for  
that particular program. I've opted to use the vevent
pattern as it's  
the most widely supported currently - this is open to change
in the  
future.

I have a concern though. At the moment the spec's datatime
pattern is  
<abbr>. Unfortunately screen readers are going to
mangle this, which  
is unacceptable naturally, so I've reverted to hiding the
abbr with  
{display:none} (this will cover the majority of screen
readers) and  
filled the field with with extra text, date;

<h4><abbr class="dtstart dtstamp"
title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:</ 
abbr>Mon 8pm - Radio 2</h4>

That way the information can still be parsed. I understand
this is an  
incorrect implementation, but currently unsure how to work
around this.

Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around
whilst  
still keeping relatively good screen reader support?



	<li class="programme">
					<div class="feature">
						<a id="uid-9121211"
href="#9121211" class="image uid
url">
							<img src="img/_dev/206x115.jpg"
width="206" height="115"  
alt="206x115" />
						</a>
						<div class="details">
							<a class="play-tv"
href="#9121211">
								<span>Play TV</span>
							</a>
							<h3 id="summary-9121211"
class="summary">
								<a href="#9121211">Two pints of
Juergen and a ...</a>
							</h3>
						</div>
					</div>
					<ul>
						<li class="vevent featured">
							<a href="#summary-9121211"
class="include"></a>
							<a href="#uid-9121211"
class="include"></a>
							<h4><abbr class="dtstart dtstamp" 

title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:</abbr>
Mon 8pm - Radio 2</h4>
							<div class="description">
								<p>Short description of episode lies here. It
can be up-to 90  
characters long.</p>
								<p>Expires in 3 days</p>
							</div>
							<p><a href="#downbaby">More
episodes >></a></p>
						</li>
						<li class="vevent">
							<a href="#summary-9121211"
class="include"></a>
							<a href="#uid-9121211"
class="include"></a>
							<h4><abbr class="dtstart dtstamp" 

title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:</abbr>
Mon 8pm - Radio 2</h4>
							<div class="description">
								<p>Short description of episode lies here. It
can be up-to 90  
characters long.</p>
								<p>Expires in 3 days</p>
							</div>
							<p><a href="#downbaby">More
episodes >></a></p>
						</li>
						<li class="vevent">
							<a href="#summary-9121211"
class="include"></a>
							<a href="#uid-9121211"
class="include"></a>
							<h4><abbr class="dtstart dtstamp" 

title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:</abbr>
Mon 8pm - Radio 2</h4>
							<div class="description">
								<p>Short description of episode lies here. It
can be up-to 90  
characters long.</p>
								<p>Expires in 3 days</p>
							</div>
							<p><a href="#downbaby">More
episodes >></a></p>
						</li>
					</ul>

					
				</li>
</li> 
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Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer
country flaguser name
United States
2008-03-04 09:53:12
Adam Craven - Four Shapes wrote:

> Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked
around whilst still
> keeping relatively good screen reader support?

You mentioned hiding the ABBR with CSS as a solution, but
IE6 (which 
plenty of screen readers hook into) ignores the ABBR element
entirely and 
will not apply styling to it. (It's not even in the DOM
tree.) So that 
technique may prove to be of limited utility.

The fact is that the microformats datetime design pattern
(and to a lesser 
extent, the ABBR design pattern) suffers from major
accessibility 
problems. This has been known about and discussed for over
18 months, with 
various alternatives being proposed, some of which have been
pretty bad, 
but others which look very sensible. Probably my favourite
so far was Andy 
Mabbett's recent suggestion on this very list <http://microformats.org/

discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-February/011583.html&
gt; which I have 
implemented <http://buzzword
.org.uk/cognition/> and found to be no more 
difficult to parse than the ABBR pattern.

However, despite a lot of proposals having been put forward,
the community 
seems to have been very reluctant to actually bless one. It
is fair enough 
to take time to consider these things carefully before
issuing an edict 
(perhaps if that had been done to begin with we would have
never ended up 
with a broken datetime design pattern), but while the
community dithers 
over deciding upon a replacement, more and more instances of
this 
inaccessible pattern are deployed.

For what it's worth, the empty anchors in your example code
could also 
cause accessibility problems -- amongst other issues, they
can interfere 
with the tab sequence when keyboard navigation is used.

If I were in your place, with as big an audience as the BBC
has, I'd go 
with an accessible alternative datetime pattern and wait for
the parsers 
to catch up with me.

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 34 days,
21:38.]

                               Bottled Water
          http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/

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Re: Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer
country flaguser name
United Kingdom
2008-03-04 10:42:49
On Tue, March 4, 2008 15:53, Toby A Inkster wrote:

> The fact is that the microformats datetime design
pattern (and to a
> lesser extent, the ABBR design pattern) suffers from
major accessibility
> problems. This has been known about and discussed for
over 18 months,
> with various alternatives being proposed, some of which
have been pretty
> bad, but others which look very sensible. Probably my
favourite so far was
> Andy
> Mabbett's recent suggestion on this very list <http://microformats.org/

>
discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-February/011583.html&
gt; which I have
> implemented <http://buzzword
.org.uk/cognition/> and found to be no more
> difficult to parse than the ABBR pattern.

Thank you for confirming that.

> However, despite a lot of proposals having been put
forward, the
> community seems to have been very reluctant to actually
bless one.

True; that applies to other issues equally, too.

> It is
> fair enough to take time to consider these things
carefully before issuing
> an edict (perhaps if that had been done to begin with
we would have never
> ended up with a broken datetime design pattern), but
while the community
> dithers over deciding upon a replacement, more and more
instances of this
> inaccessible pattern are deployed.

Quite - and, as I've pointed out before, the imminent
release of Firefox
3, with native support for microformats, will see a
significant leap in
public awareness of microformats.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

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Re: Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer
user name
2008-03-04 11:27:11
I'd do two things:

1 Decide on a microformat that'll work, and ignore the
accessibility
issues. If you do it well, then other sites will copy you
and it'll
become a de facto standard. Then the assistive technology
vendors
(like me) will code support for it into their solutions.
There'll be a
lag, but we'll end up with a microformat standard in actual
use.

This is clearly a contentious statement. However, the fact
that this
able, technical and motivated forum has been unable to come
up with a
agreed accessible format in eighteen months strongly
suggests it isn't
going to be able to do so with current assistive technology:
better,
"build it and they will come."

I develop a web browser and RSS news reader and various
other
accessible programs for blind people, including two
applications
specifically for users of the live BBC radio streams and the
BBC
Listen Again service. I can attest that microformats would
be a great
help to assistive technology vendors, but only if they are
widely
adopted. It is therefore better to deploy a
inaccessible-on-day-0
microformat than never to deploy it at all.

One extra line of gobbledegook on a web page for a blind
user is
really not going to present a big problem, they're quite
used to
ignoring sections of inaccessible content. A strong
microformat
champion like the BBC would drive other website designers
and the
assistive technology vendors will follow on. Better a period
of
inaccessibility than microformats never being adopted
because of
well-meaning concerns.

If you really really want to do something accessible today
then get
into a conversation with Andy Mabbett: he seems to be the
most
knowledgeable on accessibility (and will probably vehemently
disagree
with my position above!). He'll know the best current
solution.
(Sarcasm) Because, you know, you want your inaccessible
Flash content
to be accessed via some really accessible HTML! (End of
sarcasm)

2 Provide an OPML or RSS feed for your iPlayer content.
That's the
really accessible format for your blind users, not having to
navigate
HTML pages. For example, they could then put your feed in
their
accessible RSS news reader, or I could update my Accessible
BBC Listen
Again program to read the feed instead of having to
screen-scrape (and
don't get me started on your iPlayer Flash setup. Why do
users have to
click on the Flash to start? Why can't I start/stop it
programmatically? I can't even extract the swf url. And
don't point me
to Backstage, grumble, grumble...)  No finding the Flash
content on
the page, no skip navigation, just straight info.

Love your work, by the way. Hurrah for the BBC and your
splendid website!

Best wishes,
Dr. Alasdair King
WebbIE
http://www.webbie.org.uk






On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Toby A Inkster <mailtobyinkster.co.uk> wrote:
> Adam Craven - Four Shapes wrote:
>
>  > Does anyone have suggestions how this can be
worked around whilst still
>  > keeping relatively good screen reader support?
>
>  You mentioned hiding the ABBR with CSS as a solution,
but IE6 (which
>  plenty of screen readers hook into) ignores the ABBR
element entirely and
>  will not apply styling to it. (It's not even in the
DOM tree.) So that
>  technique may prove to be of limited utility.
>
>  The fact is that the microformats datetime design
pattern (and to a lesser
>  extent, the ABBR design pattern) suffers from major
accessibility
>  problems. This has been known about and discussed for
over 18 months, with
>  various alternatives being proposed, some of which
have been pretty bad,
>  but others which look very sensible. Probably my
favourite so far was Andy
>  Mabbett's recent suggestion on this very list <http://microformats.org/

> 
discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-February/011583.html&
gt; which I have
>  implemented <http://buzzword
.org.uk/cognition/> and found to be no more
>  difficult to parse than the ABBR pattern.
>
>  However, despite a lot of proposals having been put
forward, the community
>  seems to have been very reluctant to actually bless
one. It is fair enough
>  to take time to consider these things carefully before
issuing an edict
>  (perhaps if that had been done to begin with we would
have never ended up
>  with a broken datetime design pattern), but while the
community dithers
>  over deciding upon a replacement, more and more
instances of this
>  inaccessible pattern are deployed.
>
>  For what it's worth, the empty anchors in your example
code could also
>  cause accessibility problems -- amongst other issues,
they can interfere
>  with the tab sequence when keyboard navigation is
used.
>
>  If I were in your place, with as big an audience as
the BBC has, I'd go
>  with an accessible alternative datetime pattern and
wait for the parsers
>  to catch up with me.
>
>  --
>  Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
>  [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
>  [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 34 days,
21:38.]
>
>                                Bottled Water
>           http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  microformats-discuss mailing list
>  microformats-discussmicroformats.org
>  http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>



-- 
Alasdair King
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Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer
country flaguser name
United States
2008-03-05 05:57:40
Alasdair King wrote:

> This is clearly a contentious statement. However, the
fact that this
> able, technical and motivated forum has been unable to
come up with a
> agreed accessible format in eighteen months strongly
suggests it isn't
> going to be able to do so with current assistive
technology: better,
> "build it and they will come."

In my opinion this is a misrepresentation of the status quo.


The reason that no consensus has been agreed for an
accessible alternative 
to the ABBR pattern is not that no accessible alternatives
exist; it is 
not that no alternatives have been suggested; and nor is it
a lack of 
assistive technology support for the suggestions. It is
simply that none 
of the proposed alternative patterns have been
rubber-stamped by the 
powers that be.

For example, the following:

	<span title="Monday 3 March 2008
(data:2008-03-03)"
	class="dtstart">started two days
ago</span>

Is perfectly accessible in all tested screen readers (the
read the human-
readable "started two days ago") and seems to
present no problems for any 
other assistive technology. It is trivial to implement --
simply find all 
elements (not just SPAN) with title attributes that match
the regular 
expression:

	/^.*data:(.*)[]})]?$/

and take the matching sub-expression (.*) to be the value of
the property.

It doesn't interfere with the existing ABBR design pattern
(which is, 
occasionally, used in an accessible manner, such as <abbr
class="country-
name" title="Japan">JP</abbr> in
hCard) so can be used in conjunction with 
it as appropriate; and is highly unlikely to match any false
positives on 
existing web pages.

There have been other good suggestions too (though none I
think as good as 
the one shown above) -- it is not suggestions that we lack,
but the 
inertia to make one or more of them "official" and
widely implemented. It 
does not bode well for the accessibility of Microformats
that one of the 
main providers of said inertia has just been banned from the
process for 
18 months.

For my part, I've implemented this "data:" prefix
in Cognition <http://
buzzword.org.uk/cognition/> and plan on using it when I
add hAtom support 
to demiblog <http://demiblog.org/>. (hCalendar was previously rolled back 
out of demiblog due to accessibility concerns. hCard, XFN
and rel-tag are 
currently used though.)

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 35 days,
17:46.]

                               Bottled Water
          http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/

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Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer
user name
2008-03-05 06:21:00
Hi Adam

We've had the same problems with http://bbc.co.uk/program
mes. For now we've
stuck with the standard abbr design pattern but as Mr
Mabbett helpfully
pointed out our use has potential accessibility issues and
definite semantic
nastiness.

See here:
htt
p://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/animation

We've spoken to the bbc accessibility and semantic html
working groups. The
accessibility people said there were no accessibility
problems which in the
light of discussions here and elsewhere surprises me. I'm
still chasing to
get a definite answer and some proper testing

The conversation is currently in the hands of the UXD
cluster

I've been pushing to get full coverage testing and an update
to the BBC
accessibility standards to say either:

- you may use microformats
- you may use the abbreviation design pattern

Or conversely

- you may use microformats
- you must not use the abbreviation design pattern

[And similar for rdf-a]

Would be good if you could also raise these questions with
Nick Holmes and
cc Frances Berriman and me. Ta






On 4/3/08 13:26, "Adam Craven - Four Shapes"
<adam.cravenfourshapes.com>
wrote:

> Hi fellers,
> 
> We're working on the next version of the BBC iPlayer
and would love to
> put some microformats in there.
> 
> Below is what I've gotten so far. In this particular
instance there's
> a single box (206x115) with an image attached. When
hovered over,
> using JavaScript, the idea is to retrieve the last 7
days of shows for
> that particular program. I've opted to use the vevent
pattern as it's
> the most widely supported currently - this is open to
change in the
> future.
> 
> I have a concern though. At the moment the spec's
datatime pattern is
> <abbr>. Unfortunately screen readers are going to
mangle this, which
> is unacceptable naturally, so I've reverted to hiding
the abbr with
> {display:none} (this will cover the majority of screen
readers) and
> filled the field with with extra text, date;
> 
> <h4><abbr class="dtstart dtstamp"
title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:</
> abbr>Mon 8pm - Radio 2</h4>
> 
> That way the information can still be parsed. I
understand this is an
> incorrect implementation, but currently unsure how to
work around this.
> 
> Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked
around whilst
> still keeping relatively good screen reader support?
> 
> 
> 
> <li class="programme">
> <div class="feature">
> <a id="uid-9121211"
href="#9121211" class="image uid
url">
> <img src="img/_dev/206x115.jpg"
width="206" height="115"
> alt="206x115" />
> </a>
> <div class="details">
> <a class="play-tv"
href="#9121211">
> <span>Play TV</span>
> </a>
> <h3 id="summary-9121211"
class="summary">
> <a href="#9121211">Two pints of Juergen
and a ...</a>
> </h3>
> </div>
> </div>
> <ul>
> <li class="vevent featured">
> <a href="#summary-9121211"
class="include"></a>
> <a href="#uid-9121211"
class="include"></a>
> <h4><abbr class="dtstart dtstamp"
>
title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:</abbr>
Mon 8pm - Radio 2</h4>
> <div class="description">
> <p>Short description of episode lies here. It can
be up-to 90
> characters long.</p>
> <p>Expires in 3 days</p>
> </div>
> <p><a href="#downbaby">More
episodes >></a></p>
> </li>
> <li class="vevent">
> <a href="#summary-9121211"
class="include"></a>
> <a href="#uid-9121211"
class="include"></a>
> <h4><abbr class="dtstart dtstamp"
>
title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:</abbr>
Mon 8pm - Radio 2</h4>
> <div class="description">
> <p>Short description of episode lies here. It can
be up-to 90
> characters long.</p>
> <p>Expires in 3 days</p>
> </div>
> <p><a href="#downbaby">More
episodes >></a></p>
> </li>
> <li class="vevent">
> <a href="#summary-9121211"
class="include"></a>
> <a href="#uid-9121211"
class="include"></a>
> <h4><abbr class="dtstart dtstamp"
>
title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:</abbr>
Mon 8pm - Radio 2</h4>
> <div class="description">
> <p>Short description of episode lies here. It can
be up-to 90
> characters long.</p>
> <p>Expires in 3 days</p>
> </div>
> <p><a href="#downbaby">More
episodes >></a></p>
> </li>
> </ul>
> 
> 
> </li>
> </li> 
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss


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Re: Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer
country flaguser name
United States
2008-03-05 07:43:05
On Mar 5, 2008, at 4:57 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote:

> For example, the following:
>
> 	<span title="Monday 3 March 2008
(data:2008-03-03)"
> 	class="dtstart">started two days
ago</span>
>
> Is perfectly accessible in all tested screen readers
(the read the  
> human-
> readable "started two days ago") and seems to
present no problems  
> for any
> other assistive technology.


I think the problem is that "seems to."  The
original <abbr> pattern  
seemed to present no problems, but then it did have problems
with real  
screen readers in deployment.  So the progress is slow here
because  
it's difficult to get access to such testing, and such
testing is very  
important.  See:

http://www.w3.o
rg/WAI/eval/users.html

To avoid repeating the same mistake, we shouldn't rubber
stamp any  
potential solution without first testing with real world
screen reader  
users.  Lacking volunteers coming forward to offer such
testing, as  
they have with the include pattern, perhaps we should look
into how  
much it would cost to pay for the testing and see if we
can't raise  
funds to get it done.

Peace,
Scott

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Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer
country flaguser name
United States
2008-03-07 11:13:30
Toby A Inkster wrote:

> It is fair enough to take time to consider these things
carefully before
> issuing an edict (perhaps if that had been done to
begin with we would
> have never ended up with a broken datetime design
pattern), but while
> the community dithers over deciding upon a replacement,
more and more
> instances of this inaccessible pattern are deployed.

An example of the inaccessible datetime pattern can now be
seen in the 
Microsoft WebSlice whitepaper[1]. The further it spreads,
the harder it 
will be to fix.

(Also it's worth noting that the first four HTML examples in
the paper 
contain invalid HTML.)

____
1. http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleas
es.aspx?
ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=567

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 37 days,
23:28.]

                               Bottled Water
          http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/

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Re: Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer
user name
2008-03-07 16:48:52
> Toby A Inkster wrote:
>  An example of the inaccessible datetime pattern can
now be seen in the
>  Microsoft WebSlice whitepaper[1]. The further it
spreads, the harder it
>  will be to fix.
>  ____
>  1. http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleas
es.aspx?
>  ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=567

The further it spreads, the more likely Freedom Scientific
are to add
support for it. Then it isn't inaccessible.

Inaccessible has three meanings: you just can't make it
accessible
(e.g. an image without an alt tag), you could make it
accessible
because it's machine-readable but it isn't right now (e.g.
the
datetime pattern), and it's theoretically-accessible but
most/many
people with a disability find it too hard to use (e.g. the
iPlayer
online Flash content).

The first is absolutely bad. The second is bad if you have
no chance
of vendors adding support for it, but I'd argue that it may
be better
than not progressing a technology that has potential
benefits for
assistive technology users. The third is bad but stops
being
"accessibility" and starts being
"usability" and more a matter for
individual developers and situations.

Of course, the devil is in telling your "inaccessible
and always will
be" from "inaccessible until it's supported"!
But if we have Microsoft
- and the BBC? - using a particular microformat...

Best wishes,
Alasdair King




-- 
Alasdair King
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