A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable

David,

> Wow. A spec just like Aphrodite, born fully an adult.


<p class="pedantry">I think you mean the
goddess Athena </p>
;

john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/st
yle_master
about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com
Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org

My Microformats book :: http://microformatiqu
e.com/book


_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 11:28 PM, John Allsopp <johnwestciv.com> wrote:
>
>  > Wow. A spec just like Aphrodite, born fully an
adult.
>
>  <p class="pedantry">I think you mean
the goddess Athena </p>
;
>

gonna have to take that westciv domain away if you're not
careful  


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:La_naissance_de_Vénus
.jpg

-cks

-- 
Christopher St. John
http://artofsystems.
blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

Christopher

> gonna have to take that westciv domain away if you're
not
> careful  
>
> 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:La_naissance_de_Vénus
.jpg


I'll see you your Aphrodite, and raise you

"Athena leaped from Zeus's head, fully grown and
armed"

http://en.wikiped
ia.org/wiki/Athena

looks like we may both be right!

Perhaps the ambiguous relationship between Athena and Zeus
is captured  
perfectly by XFN

rel="parent" (being arguably both father and
mother)

And with that, a happy easter to all those who celebrate
that  
particular festival

john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/st
yle_master
about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com
Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org

My Microformats book :: http://microformatiqu
e.com/book



_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 1:49 AM, John Allsopp <johnwestciv.com> wrote:
> Christopher
>
>
>  > gonna have to take that westciv domain away if
you're not
>  > careful  
>  >
>  > 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:La_naissance_de_Vénus
.jpg
>
>
>  I'll see you your Aphrodite, and raise you
>
>  "Athena leaped from Zeus's head, fully grown and
armed"
>
>  http://en.wikiped
ia.org/wiki/Athena
>
>  looks like we may both be right!

We're both right, but I meant Athena 

>  Perhaps the ambiguous relationship between Athena and
Zeus is captured
>  perfectly by XFN
>
>  rel="parent" (being arguably both father and
mother)
>
>  And with that, a happy easter to all those who
celebrate that
>  particular festival

This was one of the loose thoughts I had at SGFooCamp --
that the
social (XFN) graph is a subset of some other graph
representing other
relations:

<David> rel=celebrates <Easter>
<David> rel=attended <SGFooCamp>

Hey look, I can write triples too!

Regards, etc...

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onaswarm.com
http://www.onamine.com

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

Thanks Ryan! "Representative hCard" -- nice!

In this message I will:

(a) Summarize purpose of the representative hCard.

(b) Check on the social networks that use XFN and see if
they follow
the Representative hCard Best Practice.  

(c) Send out a plea to those social networks that aren't
following the
Representative hCard Best Practice to do so.


PURPOSE OF THE REPRESENTATIVE HCARD

A web page may contain multiple hCards.  

For example, suppose Alice creates a web page.  Alice enjoys
flying
airplanes, so in her web page she mentions the legendary
aviator Chuck
Yeager, and creates an hCard for him (as well as for
herself).  

So, in Alice's web page there are these two hCards:

<div class="vcard">
   <div class="fn">Alice Jones</div>
</div> 

<div class="vcard">
   <div class="fn">Chuck Yeager</div>
</div>

Additionally, in Alice's web page she has a link to the web
page of her
friend Bob (who's also a flying aficionado):

<a href="http://www.example.o
rg/Bob" rel="friend">Bob</a>

Note the use of XFN in the link:  >>>
rel="friend <<<

Consider a robot that is trolling all the social networks
that use XFN,
building a social network graph.  It arrives at Alice's web
page, and
parses its way to the link to her friend Bob. Now the robot
wants to
identify the source of this XFN "friend"
relationship.  There are two
hCards on Alice's web page, how will the robot know which
one
represents the source of the relationship?  That's the
purpose of a
representative hCard!

The purpose of a representative hCard is to identify itself
as "Hey,
look at me, I am the author of this page."

The way an hCard identifies itself as the representative
hCard is by:

- add to link that points back to itself (the web page)
- on the link add the hCard properties url and uid

So here's how Alice redesigns her hCard:

<div class="vcard">
   <a href="http://www.example
.org/Alice" class="url uid fn">Alice
Jones</a>
</div>  
 
Back to the robot ... it looks for the representative hCard
and finds
it.  It now knows half of the relationship, i.e. Alice Jones
is friends
with ???  To get the other half, the robot follows the link
to Bob's
web page, finds the representative hCard on that web page,
which is
this:

<div class="vcard">
   <a href="http://www.example.o
rg/Bob" class="url uid fn">Bob
Smith</a>
</div>

Now the robot has all the information it needs:
  - the source is "Alice Jones"
  - the relationship is "friend"
  - the target is "Bob Smith"

That is, Alice Jones is friends with Bob Smith

The robot adds this to the social network graph that it's
constructing,
and moves on to the next XFN-bearing link.  

TaDa!


ANALYSIS OF SOCIAL NETWORKS THAT USE XFN AND THEIR
CONFORMANCE TO THE
REPRESENTATIVE HCARD BEST PRACTICE

Now, let's examine each of the social networks that use XFN
to see if
they are following the Representative hCard Best Practice.

1. Flickr      http://www.fli
ckr.com/people/tracylee/

Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice?  No.

2. Last.fm     ht
tp://www.last.fm/user/fbellintani/?scrobbling=t1

Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice?  No.

3. Ma.gnolia   http://ma.gnoli
a.com/people/apartness

Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice?  No.

4. MetaFilter  http://www
.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292

Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice?  No. (doesn't
have any
hCards)

5. Pownce      http://pownce.com/ariel/


Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice?  Yes!

6. Twitter     http://twitter.com/t

Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice?  No.


A PLEA TO INFLUENCE THE SOCIAL NETWORKS

Are there people on this list who can influence: 
  - Flickr, 
  - Last.fm, 
  - Ma.gnolia, 
  - MetaFilter, and 
  - Twitter 
to use a representative hCard to identify the person that
the web page
is talking about?

/Roger

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

On Mar 20, 2008, at 9:27 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote:

> The purpose of a representative hCard is to identify
itself as "Hey,
> look at me, I am the author of this page."


I think it's more "Hey, look at me, I am the *subject*
of this page."   
The author is identified by <address>.

> A PLEA TO INFLUENCE THE SOCIAL NETWORKS
>
> Are there people on this list who can influence:
>  - Flickr,
>  - Last.fm,
>  - Ma.gnolia,
>  - MetaFilter, and
>  - Twitter
> to use a representative hCard to identify the person
that the web page
> is talking about?


I've contacted Matt from MetaFilter.

Peace,
Scott
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

On Mar 20, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> Thanks Ryan! "Representative hCard" -- nice!

I'm glad you like it.

On a meta point, I'd like to suggest that before people post
to this  
list saying "this is broken" that you first do
some research on the  
wiki and elsewhere. There's a good chance that if the
problem you've  
run into is worth tackling, someone else has already at
least started  
tackling it. Also, when you fail to find any work on a
point, please  
still don't email the list saying "this is
broken", try "I think this  
is broken, but that may just be because I couldn't find it
on the  
wiki". 

> A PLEA TO INFLUENCE THE SOCIAL NETWORKS
>
> Are there people on this list who can influence:
>  - Flickr,
>  - Last.fm,
>  - Ma.gnolia,
>  - MetaFilter, and
>  - Twitter
> to use a representative hCard to identify the person
that the web page
> is talking about?

Once again, we already have space on the wiki for working on
this:

  http://microfor
mats.org/wiki/advocacy

Please document any sites which should be targets of
advocacy there.  
And feel free to do any advocacy of previously documented
targets.

-ryan

PS - On another meta note, if you find that you're writing
multi-page,  
informative emails to this list, you should probably be
putting the  
information on the wiki instead.
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

Costello, Roger L. wrote:

> The purpose of a representative hCard is to identify
itself as "Hey,
> look at me, I am the author of this page."

Correction: the representative hCard may not represent the
author of the 
page. For example, the representative hCard on the Wikipedia
entry for 
Julius Caesar would normally be an hCard for Julius Caesar.
But Julius 
Caesar is not the author of the page.

The representative hCard is the contact information for the
person or 
organisation that the page is supposed to, in some way
"represent".

> Back to the robot ... it looks for the representative
hCard and finds
> it.  It now knows half of the relationship, i.e. Alice
Jones is friends
> with ??? To get the other half, the robot follows the
link to Bob's
> web page, finds the representative hCard on that web
page

An optimisation: Alice may already have an hCard for Bob on
her page. In 
which case the robot is wasting time and bandwidth if it
needs to download 
Bob's page. So if Alice's page has an hCard with a UID
property set to the 
same URL as the target of the XFN link, this hCard may be
used instead.

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 2 days, 17:58.]

                              The Semantic Web
                http://t
obyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

Hey,

I'm working on TV schedule page marked up with hCalendar.

Is there any possibility to add *single* event to calendar
instead of  
every existing event on the site? I couldn’t find anyone
mentioning  
this issue.

I was wondering if it would be possible to put http://site.com/#foo  
and get contents of <li class="vevent"
id="foo"> from the parser.

Thanks


--
Wojtek ZajÄ…c
http://microformats.pl
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

On 20 Mar 2008, at 11:17, Wojtek ZajÄ…c wrote:
> Is there any possibility to add *single* event to
calendar instead  
> of every existing event on the site? I couldn’t find
anyone  
> mentioning this issue.
>
> I was wondering if it would be possible to put http://site.com/#foo  
> and get contents of <li class="vevent"
id="foo"> from the parser.

Yes, using fragment identifiers should be supported by most
parsers.  
It's been in Suda's X2V scripts for a number of years, I
think.

Ben
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss