effect of music sharing on shared 10Mb network

Well, the answer is: it depends.

How many folks are generating how many streams, to start
with, each 
stream being, say 128Kbps or so.... 
Incomputable due to excessive imponderables.  Or, I'm too
lazy to go do 
the math. 

Especially since it's not the real question/answer anyway. 
Which 10Mbit 
network?  Some are only lightly used and won't notice,
others are 
practically vomiting bits out of every port and are
screaming for a 
upgrade (and you thought it was fan whine). 

My educated/experienced guess is that it's not crippling,
but it's not 
trivial either.  If there are throughput issues, i.e.
"slow network" 
complaints, I'd advise those who are sharing music, and or
listening to 
Internet radio feeds to knock it off until the network can
be upgraded. 

As a policy issue, I think it's still "incidental
use" for those sharing 
music locally, but the Internet radio stuff from off campus
is another 
question, since it's costing the campus money when they do
that, another 
little known fact that folks should be aware of. 

This will hopefully be less of an issue as time goes on, and
a sound 
file becomes "small" in the larger scheme of
things. 

gleno wrote:
> What is the performance impact on a shared 10 Mbit
network of people 
> sharing their itunes music libraries?  Are there policy
issues?
> thanks

-- 
-Jay Bryon
Senior Network Engineer, CNS
U.C. Berkeley

jayberkeley.edu
2-5636



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I certainly won't speak of any larger policy issues about
mp3 storage on 
campus owned machines, but to the original question...

some simple math...128kbps streams with say 10% packet
overhead gives 
about 140kbps, which goes about 73 times into a 10mb pipe. 
Now, the 
scale and scope of the effect will depend on both the number
of users 
streaming, and the network infrastructure itself.  If
you've got 48 
people on a 10mb hub (single collision domain), yeah,
you've got 
problems, but the same 48 users on 48 10mb switch
ports...almost no problem.

And as for the legality or policy issues (RIAA and such) of
this 
sharing, there is no issue.  Apple negotiated with the
recording 
companies and RIAA to ensure that the "sharing"
feature of iTunes was 
'kosher' with all.  If anyone remembers, the first version
allowed you 
to share (stream, not distribute files) to your closest 6.49
billion 
friends over the internet.  The record companies exerted a
little 
pressure, and the iTunes sharing was changed to allow only
local network 
sharing.  So, you can be pretty sure that the RIAA won't be
knocking 
down your door for using iTunes sharing, whether at home, or
on campus.

That said, the individual user that downloads 10,000 mp3s
from kazaa, 
emule, whatever, onto a campus machine and shares them
exclusively 
through iTunes isn't immune to RIAA  (or UC) smackdown,
since the files 
are still illegal.

Hope this helps the original poster...
John

Jay Bryon wrote:
> Well, the answer is: it depends.
>
> How many folks are generating how many streams, to
start with, each 
> stream being, say 128Kbps or so.... Incomputable due to
excessive 
> imponderables.  Or, I'm too lazy to go do the math.
> Especially since it's not the real question/answer
anyway.  Which 
> 10Mbit network?  Some are only lightly used and won't
notice, others 
> are practically vomiting bits out of every port and are
screaming for 
> a upgrade (and you thought it was fan whine).
> My educated/experienced guess is that it's not
crippling, but it's not 
> trivial either.  If there are throughput issues, i.e.
"slow network" 
> complaints, I'd advise those who are sharing music,
and or listening 
> to Internet radio feeds to knock it off until the
network can be 
> upgraded.
> As a policy issue, I think it's still
"incidental use" for those 
> sharing music locally, but the Internet radio stuff
from off campus is 
> another question, since it's costing the campus money
when they do 
> that, another little known fact that folks should be
aware of.
> This will hopefully be less of an issue as time goes
on, and a sound 
> file becomes "small" in the larger scheme
of things.
> gleno wrote:
>> What is the performance impact on a shared 10 Mbit
network of people 
>> sharing their itunes music libraries?  Are there
policy issues?
>> thanks
>

-- 
===================================
John D. MacDonald
Helpdesk Analyst

U.C. Berkeley - School of Law

troublelaw.berkeley.edu
510-643-6862
===================================


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Just one correction, it's not a 10Mbps pipe, in practice
it's more like 
5-6Mbps. 

So in deference to Mr. Hunter, who actually is the authority
on traffic 
flow around here, it's a problem.  How great of one? 

Well, what else do you want to use the network for? 

YMMV.

-J

John D. MacDonald wrote:
> I certainly won't speak of any larger policy issues
about mp3 storage 
> on campus owned machines, but to the original
question...
>
> some simple math...128kbps streams with say 10% packet
overhead gives 
> about 140kbps, which goes about 73 times into a 10mb
pipe.  Now, the 
> scale and scope of the effect will depend on both the
number of users 
> streaming, and the network infrastructure itself.  If
you've got 48 
> people on a 10mb hub (single collision domain), yeah,
you've got 
> problems, but the same 48 users on 48 10mb switch
ports...almost no 
> problem.
>
> And as for the legality or policy issues (RIAA and
such) of this 
> sharing, there is no issue.  Apple negotiated with the
recording 
> companies and RIAA to ensure that the
"sharing" feature of iTunes was 
> 'kosher' with all.  If anyone remembers, the first
version allowed you 
> to share (stream, not distribute files) to your closest
6.49 billion 
> friends over the internet.  The record companies
exerted a little 
> pressure, and the iTunes sharing was changed to allow
only local 
> network sharing.  So, you can be pretty sure that the
RIAA won't be 
> knocking down your door for using iTunes sharing,
whether at home, or 
> on campus.
>
> That said, the individual user that downloads 10,000
mp3s from kazaa, 
> emule, whatever, onto a campus machine and shares them
exclusively 
> through iTunes isn't immune to RIAA  (or UC)
smackdown, since the 
> files are still illegal.
>
> Hope this helps the original poster...
> John
>
> Jay Bryon wrote:
>> Well, the answer is: it depends.
>>
>> How many folks are generating how many streams, to
start with, each 
>> stream being, say 128Kbps or so.... Incomputable
due to excessive 
>> imponderables.  Or, I'm too lazy to go do the
math.
>> Especially since it's not the real question/answer
anyway.  Which 
>> 10Mbit network?  Some are only lightly used and
won't notice, others 
>> are practically vomiting bits out of every port and
are screaming for 
>> a upgrade (and you thought it was fan whine).
>> My educated/experienced guess is that it's not
crippling, but it's 
>> not trivial either.  If there are throughput
issues, i.e. "slow 
>> network" complaints, I'd advise those who
are sharing music, and or 
>> listening to Internet radio feeds to knock it off
until the network 
>> can be upgraded.
>> As a policy issue, I think it's still
"incidental use" for those 
>> sharing music locally, but the Internet radio stuff
from off campus 
>> is another question, since it's costing the campus
money when they do 
>> that, another little known fact that folks should
be aware of.
>> This will hopefully be less of an issue as time
goes on, and a sound 
>> file becomes "small" in the larger
scheme of things.
>> gleno wrote:
>>> What is the performance impact on a shared 10
Mbit network of people 
>>> sharing their itunes music libraries?  Are
there policy issues?
>>> thanks
>>
>

-- 
-Jay Bryon
Senior Network Engineer, CNS
U.C. Berkeley

jayberkeley.edu
2-5636



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Well, thanks to the delay in Micronet (and/or my mail client
checking 
once every 10 minutes) I did actually write my post before I
got Mr. 
Hunter's, so my apologies for any toe stepping or
repetition.  But even 
talking about 5-6 Mbps throughput, each stream is still less
than 1/40th 
of the available bandwidth...I'm not saying this isn't or
can't be an 
issue/problem, especially if Glen is talking about a shared
(hub) 
situation.  Just trying to give some figures for
perspective...and yes, 
YMMV indeed.

John



Jay Bryon wrote:
> Just one correction, it's not a 10Mbps pipe, in
practice it's more 
> like 5-6Mbps.
> So in deference to Mr. Hunter, who actually is the
authority on 
> traffic flow around here, it's a problem.  How great
of one?
> Well, what else do you want to use the network for?
> YMMV.
>
> -J
>
> John D. MacDonald wrote:
>> I certainly won't speak of any larger policy
issues about mp3 storage 
>> on campus owned machines, but to the original
question...
>>
>> some simple math...128kbps streams with say 10%
packet overhead gives 
>> about 140kbps, which goes about 73 times into a
10mb pipe.  Now, the 
>> scale and scope of the effect will depend on both
the number of users 
>> streaming, and the network infrastructure itself. 
If you've got 48 
>> people on a 10mb hub (single collision domain),
yeah, you've got 
>> problems, but the same 48 users on 48 10mb switch
ports...almost no 
>> problem.
>>
>> And as for the legality or policy issues (RIAA and
such) of this 
>> sharing, there is no issue.  Apple negotiated with
the recording 
>> companies and RIAA to ensure that the
"sharing" feature of iTunes was 
>> 'kosher' with all.  If anyone remembers, the
first version allowed 
>> you to share (stream, not distribute files) to your
closest 6.49 
>> billion friends over the internet.  The record
companies exerted a 
>> little pressure, and the iTunes sharing was changed
to allow only 
>> local network sharing.  So, you can be pretty sure
that the RIAA 
>> won't be knocking down your door for using iTunes
sharing, whether at 
>> home, or on campus.
>>
>> That said, the individual user that downloads
10,000 mp3s from kazaa, 
>> emule, whatever, onto a campus machine and shares
them exclusively 
>> through iTunes isn't immune to RIAA  (or UC)
smackdown, since the 
>> files are still illegal.
>>
>> Hope this helps the original poster...
>> John
>>
>> Jay Bryon wrote:
>>> Well, the answer is: it depends.
>>>
>>> How many folks are generating how many streams,
to start with, each 
>>> stream being, say 128Kbps or so....
Incomputable due to excessive 
>>> imponderables.  Or, I'm too lazy to go do the
math.
>>> Especially since it's not the real
question/answer anyway.  Which 
>>> 10Mbit network?  Some are only lightly used and
won't notice, others 
>>> are practically vomiting bits out of every port
and are screaming 
>>> for a upgrade (and you thought it was fan
whine).
>>> My educated/experienced guess is that it's not
crippling, but it's 
>>> not trivial either.  If there are throughput
issues, i.e. "slow 
>>> network" complaints, I'd advise those
who are sharing music, and or 
>>> listening to Internet radio feeds to knock it
off until the network 
>>> can be upgraded.
>>> As a policy issue, I think it's still
"incidental use" for those 
>>> sharing music locally, but the Internet radio
stuff from off campus 
>>> is another question, since it's costing the
campus money when they 
>>> do that, another little known fact that folks
should be aware of.
>>> This will hopefully be less of an issue as time
goes on, and a sound 
>>> file becomes "small" in the larger
scheme of things.
>>> gleno wrote:
>>>> What is the performance impact on a shared
10 Mbit network of 
>>>> people sharing their itunes music
libraries?  Are there policy issues?
>>>> thanks
>>>
>>
>

-- 
===================================
John D. MacDonald
Helpdesk Analyst

U.C. Berkeley - School of Law

troublelaw.berkeley.edu
510-643-6862
===================================


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I was off by a factor of 10 in my own head (although I wrote
down the
correct figure), so I should revise what I wrote and say
that a person
streaming audio at 128Kbps is not going to cause a problem
on a
properly-functioning network.  If they are trying to share
the network
with 200 of their closest friends and colleagues who are
also trying to
use a crowded network, then they're using more than their
fair share.  But
that's not for CNS to adjudicate.

On Feb 24 at 13:04, "John D. MacDonald" wrote:

> Well, thanks to the delay in Micronet (and/or my mail
client checking 
> once every 10 minutes) I did actually write my post
before I got Mr. 
> Hunter's, so my apologies for any toe stepping or
repetition.  But even 
> talking about 5-6 Mbps throughput, each stream is still
less than 1/40th 
> of the available bandwidth...I'm not saying this
isn't or can't be an 
> issue/problem, especially if Glen is talking about a
shared (hub) 
> situation.  Just trying to give some figures for
perspective...and yes, 
> YMMV indeed.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> Jay Bryon wrote:
> >Just one correction, it's not a 10Mbps pipe, in
practice it's more 
> >like 5-6Mbps.
> >So in deference to Mr. Hunter, who actually is the
authority on 
> >traffic flow around here, it's a problem.  How
great of one?
> >Well, what else do you want to use the network for?
> >YMMV.
> >
> >-J
> >
> >John D. MacDonald wrote:
> >>I certainly won't speak of any larger policy
issues about mp3 storage 
> >>on campus owned machines, but to the original
question...
> >>
> >>some simple math...128kbps streams with say 10%
packet overhead gives 
> >>about 140kbps, which goes about 73 times into a
10mb pipe.  Now, the 
> >>scale and scope of the effect will depend on
both the number of users 
> >>streaming, and the network infrastructure
itself.  If you've got 48 
> >>people on a 10mb hub (single collision domain),
yeah, you've got 
> >>problems, but the same 48 users on 48 10mb
switch ports...almost no 
> >>problem.
> >>
> >>And as for the legality or policy issues (RIAA
and such) of this 
> >>sharing, there is no issue.  Apple negotiated
with the recording 
> >>companies and RIAA to ensure that the
"sharing" feature of iTunes was 
> >>'kosher' with all.  If anyone remembers, the
first version allowed 
> >>you to share (stream, not distribute files) to
your closest 6.49 
> >>billion friends over the internet.  The record
companies exerted a 
> >>little pressure, and the iTunes sharing was
changed to allow only 
> >>local network sharing.  So, you can be pretty
sure that the RIAA 
> >>won't be knocking down your door for using
iTunes sharing, whether at 
> >>home, or on campus.
> >>
> >>That said, the individual user that downloads
10,000 mp3s from kazaa, 
> >>emule, whatever, onto a campus machine and
shares them exclusively 
> >>through iTunes isn't immune to RIAA  (or UC)
smackdown, since the 
> >>files are still illegal.

[snip]

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In this particular case, it's a shared 10 Mb network with
over 200 
assigned IPs which on occasion becomes virtually unusable
during 
periods of high utilization (85-90% and beyond).  I don't
know if 
that falls outside the technical definition of
"properly-functioning 
network," but it purely describes "unhappy
network campers."  

The most recent occurrence was not due (at least not
explicitly) to 
music streaming,  but to a large file transfer during the
busy 
mid-morning hours.  Once the user was located and asked to
reschedule 
their large (legitimate) file transfers for off-hours,
things 
returned to normal.

So, if the constant network traffic is increased by some
(unknown) 
multiple of 128 Kbps, the potential effect is rather
significant (for 
this network), is it not?


At 1:20 PM -0800 2/24/06, Mike Hunter wrote:
>I was off by a factor of 10 in my own head (although I
wrote down the
>correct figure), so I should revise what I wrote and say
that a person
>streaming audio at 128Kbps is not going to cause a
problem on a
>properly-functioning network.  If they are trying to
share the network
>with 200 of their closest friends and colleagues who are
also trying to
>use a crowded network, then they're using more than
their fair share.  But
>that's not for CNS to adjudicate.
>
>On Feb 24 at 13:04, "John D. MacDonald"
wrote:
>
>>  Well, thanks to the delay in Micronet (and/or my
mail client checking
>>  once every 10 minutes) I did actually write my
post before I got Mr.
>>  Hunter's, so my apologies for any toe stepping or
repetition.  But even
>>  talking about 5-6 Mbps throughput, each stream is
still less than 1/40th
>>  of the available bandwidth...I'm not saying this
isn't or can't be an
>>  issue/problem, especially if Glen is talking about
a shared (hub)
>>  situation.  Just trying to give some figures for
perspective...and yes,
>>  YMMV indeed.
>>
>>  John
>>
>>
>>
>>  Jay Bryon wrote:
>>  >Just one correction, it's not a 10Mbps pipe,
in practice it's more
>>  >like 5-6Mbps.
>>  >So in deference to Mr. Hunter, who actually is
the authority on
>>  >traffic flow around here, it's a problem. 
How great of one?
>>  >Well, what else do you want to use the network
for?
>>  >YMMV.
>>  >
>>  >-J
>>  >
>>  >John D. MacDonald wrote:
>>  >>I certainly won't speak of any larger
policy issues about mp3 storage
>>  >>on campus owned machines, but to the
original question...
>>  >>
>>  >>some simple math...128kbps streams with
say 10% packet overhead gives
>>  >>about 140kbps, which goes about 73 times
into a 10mb pipe.  Now, the
>>  >>scale and scope of the effect will depend
on both the number of users
>>  >>streaming, and the network infrastructure
itself.  If you've got 48
>>  >>people on a 10mb hub (single collision
domain), yeah, you've got
>>  >>problems, but the same 48 users on 48 10mb
switch ports...almost no
>>  >>problem.
>>  >>
>>  >>And as for the legality or policy issues
(RIAA and such) of this
>>  >>sharing, there is no issue.  Apple
negotiated with the recording
>>  >>companies and RIAA to ensure that the
"sharing" feature of iTunes was
>>  >>'kosher' with all.  If anyone remembers,
the first version allowed
>>  >>you to share (stream, not distribute
files) to your closest 6.49
>>  >>billion friends over the internet.  The
record companies exerted a
>>  >>little pressure, and the iTunes sharing
was changed to allow only
>>  >>local network sharing.  So, you can be
pretty sure that the RIAA
>>  >>won't be knocking down your door for
using iTunes sharing, whether at
>>  >>home, or on campus.
>>  >>
>>  >>That said, the individual user that
downloads 10,000 mp3s from kazaa,
>>  >>emule, whatever, onto a campus machine and
shares them exclusively
>>  >>through iTunes isn't immune to RIAA  (or
UC) smackdown, since the
>>  >>files are still illegal.
>
>[snip]
>
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>For information about MAGNet, its meetings and events,
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ey.edu/>.


-- 
Glen Ozawa
IB Computing Support
glenoLS.Berkeley.EDU

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