List Info

Thread: RE: EMPTY_DOC thread stability issues




RE: EMPTY_DOC thread stability issues
country flaguser name
United States
2007-08-31 14:09:21
Yeah... this is what led to the creation of EMPTY_DOC. The exceptions you're seeing now are caused by you creating an Element with one factory (Document) and then trying to append it to another one. For example, NotificationMessage serialization will create a Document and start appending Elements... one of those will be an EPR, which serializes itself with its own Document. In order to prevent the exception, the NotificationMessage code needs to call Document.importNode() on the EPR Element (or have toXML() somehow return the Document it used along with the serialized XML, which would make the API really ugly).

The importNode() method does a deep copy of the Element; there is no way to just switch an Element's parent Document. As you start to replace EMPTY_DOC with calls to createDocument() *and* importNode(), you will see lots of XML fragments being copied lots of times on the way to a complete SOAP message. So, if you think there's too much object creation now, you ain't seen nothing yet. ;)

Dan



"Vinh Nguyen (vinguye2)" <vinguye2cisco.com&gt; wrote on 08/31/2007 01:30:57 PM:

&gt; I should add...I locally updated the EndpointReference class and
> changed all XmlUtils.EMPTY_DOC references to XmlUtils.
> createDocument().  I no longer get errors related to
> EndpointReference, but now get other errors in other classes like
> SimpleNotificationMessage which attempts to serialize the message.  
&gt; I'm mostly concerned with serialization at this point, since it
> affects both notifications and operation responses.  Will test further...

>
> From: Vinh Nguyen (vinguye2)
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 10:06 AM
> To: muse-devws.apache.org
> Subject: RE: EMPTY_DOC thread stability issues

> Hi Dan,
&gt; You're probably be right.  I'll continue to test further.  I think I
> heard of issues with Xerces and will check to see if this is related.

> -Vinh
>
> From: Daniel Jemiolo [ danjemiolous.ibm.com">mailto:danjemiolous.ibm.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 7:30 AM
> To: muse-devws.apache.org
> Subject: RE: EMPTY_DOC thread stability issues

> The problem isn't that EMPTY_DOC is being modified - that would only
>; happen if we appended to the Document itself. Since Document is a
> factory, we can use it to create fragments that, while their
> "parent" is the Document, they are not actually attached to it
> (otherwise you'd get RuntimeExceptions about the Document having
> more than one root element).
>
> For reasons that I do not understand, the Xerces parser/factory is
> not stateless, and that is causing the concurrency bugs. The simple
> act of creating new elements at the same time generates the
> exception. Either way, we'll have to remove it.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> "Vinh Nguyen (vinguye2)" <vinguye2cisco.com&gt; wrote on 08/31/2007
> 04:34:28 AM:
>
> > Hi Dan,
>; > I've also done some testing just now and am finding this to be a
> > very serious issue.  It really affects the usability of Muse as a whole.
&gt; >  
&gt; > To test, I created three resources.  Each had a loop to generate 100
> > notifications with no pause between notifications.  So out of 300
> > total notifications generated, I had these results:
> > Test A = 9 notifications dropped
> > Test B = 24 notifications dropped
> >  
&gt; > Attached is a file containing the various exceptions which caused
> > SimpleSubscriptionManager.publish() to fail.  As Rich pointed out,
> > the culprit is using EMPTY_DOC from multiple threads (i.e. each
> > client request is one thread).
> >  
&gt; > The XmlUtils.EMPTY_DOC javadocs has this:
&gt; > "This should NOT be used by callers that want to build new fragments
> > and attach them to a Document...you should never append children.&quot;
>; >  
&gt; > But in XmlUtils itself and many other classes, the following code
> > patterns are used:
&gt; >  
&gt; >     Document doc = XmlUtils.EMPTY_DOC;
> >     Element xml = XmlUtils.createElement(doc, qname);
> >     xml.appendChild(node);
> >    
> >     OR:
> >     doc.importNode(node, true);
&gt; > The doc is a shared object but is being modified, so errors will
> > occur.  So just about all the serializers are affected, including
> > the EndpointReference class.  This means errors will most likely
> > occur when Muse handles requests/responses from multiple clients, or
> > when notifications are sent from multiple resources.  The latter is
> > easier to test.
&gt; >  
&gt; > So far, we've been testing using just one client and one producer
> > instance, so the problem doesn't occur.  But now that we are testing
> > by using multiple producers, the exceptions are occuring frequently.
> >  
&gt; > To begin the fix, all serializers and the EndpointReference class
> > needs to be patched.  So instead of:
> > doc = XmlUtils.EMPTY_DOC;
> >  
&gt; > We should do:
> > doc = XmlUtils.createDocument();
>; >  
&gt; > The overhead of creating a new document is small when compared to
> > the multi thread issue, which cannot be avoided.  But, we can
> > optimize creating new documents by updating XmlUtils to create the
> > DocumentBuilderFactory only once.  This way, XmlUtils.
> > createBuilder() doesn't have to create a new factory everytime.
> > -Vinh
&gt; > From: Daniel Jemiolo [ danjemiolous.ibm.com">mailto:danjemiolous.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 7:31 AM
> > To: muse-devws.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: EMPTY_DOC thread stability issues
&gt;
> > The use of EMPTY_DOC was an attempt to avoid creating a new Document
> > every time we wanted to copy or create small fragments of XML. This
> > happened a lot during the request/response process, so the creation
> > of these factory objects was not insignificant. Of course, you are
> > right about the threading issue, so I guess we're out of luck there.
&gt; >
> > I am setting aside Friday of this week to go through current JIRA
> > items and apply all patches that have been submitted, close any
> > issues that are recommended for closure, and sort unscheduled items
> > into 2.3 if necessary. Sorry for the delay.
&gt; >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> > [image removed] rlucentexecu.net
> >
>
> >
> > rlucentexecu.net
> > 08/24/2007 04:37 PM
> >
> > Please respond to
> > muse-devws.apache.org
> >
> > [image removed]
> > To
> >
> > [image removed]
> > muse-devws.apache.org
> >
> > [image removed]
> > cc
> >
> > [image removed]
> >
> > [image removed]
> > Subject
> >
> > [image removed]
> > EMPTY_DOC thread stability issues
&gt; >
> > [image removed]
> >
> > [image removed]
> >
> >
> > Use of EMPTY_DOC (an instance of an empty DOM Document element within
&gt; > class XmlUtils) among multiple threads causes unpredictable results.
> > While testing a messaging service that uses the Apache Muse WS-N
>; > implementation, I noticed that 4-6 messages in a 1000 were being dropped.
> > Notification messages were being sent at a rate of 20 per second.  Where
> > the messages were dropped, the following stack trace occurred:
> >
> > 2007-08-24 15:27:58,031 ERROR [STDERR] Aug 24, 2007 3:27:58 PM
> > org.apache.muse.util.LoggingUtils logError
> > INFO: There was an error while processing a request:
> >
> > [ID = 'NoMessageContent'] The NotificationMessage XML does not have a
> > Message element. All messages must have a message payload associated with
>; > them.
&gt; >
> >        org.apache.muse.ws.notification.impl.
> > SimpleNotificationMessage.<init>(SimpleNotificationMessage.java:117)
> >        org.apache.muse.ws.notification.impl.
> > NotificationMessageSerializer.fromXML(NotificationMessageSerializer.java:46)
> >        org.apache.muse.core.serializer.ArraySerializer.
> > fromXML(ArraySerializer.java:126)
> >        org.apache.muse.ws.notification.impl.NotifyHandler.
> > fromXML(NotifyHandler.java:62)
> >        org.apache.muse.core.SimpleResource.invoke(SimpleResource.java:368)
> >        org.apache.muse.core.routing.SimpleResourceRouter.
> > invoke(SimpleResourceRouter.java:290)
>; >        org.apache.muse.core.platform.axis2.AxisIsolationLayer.
&gt; > invoke(AxisIsolationLayer.java:136)
> >        org.apache.muse.core.platform.axis2.AxisIsolationLayer.
&gt; > handleRequest(AxisIsolationLayer.java:88)
> >        sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor102.invoke(Unknown Source)
> >        sun.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.
> > invoke(DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.java:25)
> >        java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Method.java:324)
> >        org.apache.axis2.receivers.RawXMLINOutMessageReceiver.
&gt; > invokeBusinessLogic(RawXMLINOutMessageReceiver.java:88)
> >        org.apache.axis2.receivers.AbstractInOutSyncMessageReceiver.
> > receive(AbstractInOutSyncMessageReceiver.java:39)
&gt; >        org.apache.axis2.engine.AxisEngine.receive(AxisEngine.java:493)
> >        org.apache.axis2.transport.http.HTTPTransportUtils.
> > processHTTPPostRequest(HTTPTransportUtils.java:319)
> >        22 more...
> >
> > All of the messages did in fact have a message payload associated with
>; > them.  After further investigation I noticed that
>; > AxisEnvironment.convertToDOM is calling XmlUtils.createElement(QName)
> > which uses the common EMPTY_DOC Document instance.  Sharing EMPTY_DOC
> > among multiple threads is not safe.
&gt; >
> > I've also encountered this issue while attempting to set the producer
> > reference on a NotificationMessage.  The code actually performs a deep
>; > copy of the EndpointReference class which also relies on EMPTY_DOC.  I
> > hacked a work-around within my code that avoided use of EMPTY_DOC and
> > resolved the issue.
&gt; >
> > A grep for EMPTY_DOC against the code base turned up over 70 instances of
> > its use.  That does not count methods that use it that are called by other
&gt; > methods, so the actual usage is much higher.  I'm going to open a JIRA bug
> > against this issue and submit patches for it.
> >
> > Related to that, I've submitted patches for other issues (MUSE-240,
> > MUSE-241) over a month ago that have not been committed.  The patch for
> > MUSE-240 also resolves MUSE-225.  Please let me know the appropriate
> > process for non-committers to have patches applied to the code base.  When
> > I submitted the JIRA issues they showed up in this mailing list, but is an
> > explicit email more appropriate?  Let me know how best to proceed.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Rich Lucente
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: muse-dev-unsubscribews.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: muse-dev-helpws.apache.org
> >
> > [attachment "EMPTY_DOC_errors.txt" deleted by Daniel Jemiolo/Durham/IBM]
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: muse-dev-unsubscribews.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: muse-dev-helpws.apache.org
RE: EMPTY_DOC thread stability issues
country flaguser name
United States
2007-09-04 10:34:12
I like this solution, but care still needs to be taken to
ensure that
original documents are created as needed.  There's 70+
locations in the
code where this needs to be examined.  If I understand the
software
correctly, when a WS-N Notify request is received, a
convertToDOM occurs
and then the notify request is forwarded to the
NotificationConsumer
implementation.  The default implementation creates a thread
for
processing the notify request, and then immediately releases
the thread
that called it.  The same worker thread may try to share a
document that
is also being processed by another newly created thread, and
we're back to
the same problem.  I'm not sure ThreadLocal helps since the
worker threads
(managed by the web container) and newly created threads
could share the
same object.

> Hi,
>
> due to the discussion on the mailing list I did some
experiments with muse
> related to the thread stability issues. As a result I
would just come up
> with a small fix that should solve the majority of the
problems and also
> takes the performance issues into account that lead to
the creation of
> EMPTY_DOC. I would suggest to extend XmlUtils with the
following piece of
> code:
>
>     private static final ThreadLocal local = new
ThreadLocal();
>
>     public static synchronized Document
getLocalEmptyDoc() {
>         Document doc = (Document)local.get();
>         if (doc == null) {
>             doc = createDocument();
>             local.set(doc);
>         }
>         return doc;
>     }
>
> The usage of EMPTY_DOC should be replaced by a call to
getLocalEmptyDoc().
> Existing functionality can remain untouched.
>
> However, I don't think that this solves all the
problems. One other
> problem is that for the creation of permanent objects
like EPR's of
> resources, separate XML documents have to be used. One
of the problems was
> that multiple threads (resources) accessed one Resource
EPR (or the _xml
> object inside the EPR) at the same time when a
NotificationMessage was
> created. Hereby the setProducerReference() and
setSubscriptionReference()
> of SimpleNotificatioMessage were invoked
transparently.
>
> Furthermore, I would suggest to use a new Xml Document
within
>
>     public EndpointReference(EndpointReference copy,
QName typeName) {
>         ...
>         Document doc = XmlUtils.createDocument();
>         ...
>     }
>
> This also contibutes to stability, since this
constructor is used within
> the implementation to create the EPR instances of new
resources.
>
> With the mentioned changes I obtained quite good
results in my test setup
> (notification provider+consumer sample with 3 to 10
resources each) with
> MUSE. This means I did not experience exceptions
anymore, but I think this
> has to be tested in more detail.
>
> Oliver
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:09:21 -0400
>> Von: Daniel Jemiolo <danjemiolous.ibm.com>
>> An: muse-devws.apache.org
>> Betreff: RE: EMPTY_DOC thread stability issues
>
>>
>>
>> Yeah... this is what led to the creation of
EMPTY_DOC. The exceptions
>> you're seeing now are caused by you creating an
Element with one factory
>> (Document) and then trying to append it to another
one. For example,
>> NotificationMessage serialization will create a
Document and start
>> appending Elements... one of those will be an EPR,
which serializes
>> itself
>> with its own Document. In order to prevent the
exception, the
>> NotificationMessage code needs to call
Document.importNode() on the EPR
>> Element (or have toXML() somehow return the
Document it used along with
>> the
>> serialized XML, which would make the API really
ugly).
>>
>> The importNode() method does a deep copy of the
Element; there is no way
>> to
>> just switch an Element's parent Document. As you
start to replace
>> EMPTY_DOC
>> with calls to createDocument() *and* importNode(),
you will see lots of
>> XML
>> fragments being copied lots of times on the way to
a complete SOAP
>> message.
>> So, if you think there's too much object creation
now, you ain't seen
>> nothing yet.  ;)
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>> "Vinh Nguyen (vinguye2)"
<vinguye2cisco.com> wrote on 08/31/2007
>> 01:30:57 PM:
>>
>> > I should add...I locally updated the
EndpointReference class and
>> > changed all XmlUtils.EMPTY_DOC references to
XmlUtils.
>> > createDocument().  I no longer get errors
related to
>> > EndpointReference, but now get other errors in
other classes like
>> > SimpleNotificationMessage which attempts to
serialize the message.
>> > I'm mostly concerned with serialization at
this point, since it
>> > affects both notifications and operation
responses.  Will test
>> further...
>> >
>> > From: Vinh Nguyen (vinguye2)
>> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 10:06 AM
>> > To: muse-devws.apache.org
>> > Subject: RE: EMPTY_DOC thread stability
issues
>>
>> > Hi Dan,:
>> > You're probably be right.  I'll continue to
test further.  I think I
>> > heard of issues with Xerces and will check to
see if this is related.
>> > -Vinh
>> >
>> > From: Daniel Jemiolo [mailto:danjemiolous.ibm.com]
>> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 7:30 AM
>> > To: muse-devws.apache.org
>> > Subject: RE: EMPTY_DOC thread stability
issues
>>
>> > The problem isn't that EMPTY_DOC is being
modified - that would only
>> > happen if we appended to the Document itself.
Since Document is a
>> > factory, we can use it to create fragments
that, while their
>> > "parent" is the Document, they are
not actually attached to it
>> > (otherwise you'd get RuntimeExceptions about
the Document having
>> > more than one root element).
>> >
>> > For reasons that I do not understand, the
Xerces parser/factory is
>> > not stateless, and that is causing the
concurrency bugs. The simple
>> > act of creating new elements at the same time
generates the
>> > exception. Either way, we'll have to remove
it.
>> >
>> > Dan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Vinh Nguyen (vinguye2)"
<vinguye2cisco.com> wrote on 08/31/2007
>> > 04:34:28 AM:
>> >
>> > > Hi Dan,
>> > > I've also done some testing just now and
am finding this to be a
>> > > very serious issue.  It really affects
the usability of Muse as a
>> whole.
>> > >
>> > > To test, I created three resources.  Each
had a loop to generate 100
>> > > notifications with no pause between
notifications.  So out of 300
>> > > total notifications generated, I had
these results:
>> > > Test A = 9 notifications dropped
>> > > Test B = 24 notifications dropped
>> > >
>> > > Attached is a file containing the various
exceptions which caused
>> > > SimpleSubscriptionManager.publish() to
fail.  As Rich pointed out,
>> > > the culprit is using EMPTY_DOC from
multiple threads (i.e. each
>> > > client request is one thread).
>> > >
>> > > The XmlUtils.EMPTY_DOC javadocs has
this:
>> > > "This should NOT be used by callers
that want to build new fragments
>> > > and attach them to a Document...you
should never append children."
>> > >
>> > > But in XmlUtils itself and many other
classes, the following code
>> > > patterns are used:
>> > >
>> > >     Document doc = XmlUtils.EMPTY_DOC;
>> > >     Element xml =
XmlUtils.createElement(doc, qname);
>> > >     xml.appendChild(node);
>> > >
>> > >     OR:
>> > >     doc.importNode(node, true);
>> > > The doc is a shared object but is being
modified, so errors will
>> > > occur.  So just about all the serializers
are affected, including
>> > > the EndpointReference class.  This means
errors will most likely
>> > > occur when Muse handles
requests/responses from multiple clients, or
>> > > when notifications are sent from multiple
resources.  The latter is
>> > > easier to test.
>> > >
>> > > So far, we've been testing using just one
client and one producer
>> > > instance, so the problem doesn't occur. 
But now that we are testing
>> > > by using multiple producers, the
exceptions are occuring frequently.
>> > >
>> > > To begin the fix, all serializers and the
EndpointReference class
>> > > needs to be patched.  So instead of:
>> > > doc = XmlUtils.EMPTY_DOC;
>> > >
>> > > We should do:
>> > > doc = XmlUtils.createDocument();
>> > >
>> > > The overhead of creating a new document
is small when compared to
>> > > the multi thread issue, which cannot be
avoided.  But, we can
>> > > optimize creating new documents by
updating XmlUtils to create the
>> > > DocumentBuilderFactory only once.  This
way, XmlUtils.
>> > > createBuilder() doesn't have to create a
new factory everytime.
>> > > -Vinh
>> > > From: Daniel Jemiolo
[mailto:danjemiolous.ibm.com]
>> > > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 7:31 AM
>> > > To: muse-devws.apache.org
>> > > Subject: Re: EMPTY_DOC thread stability
issues
>> >
>> > > The use of EMPTY_DOC was an attempt to
avoid creating a new Document
>> > > every time we wanted to copy or create
small fragments of XML. This
>> > > happened a lot during the
request/response process, so the creation
>> > > of these factory objects was not
insignificant. Of course, you are
>> > > right about the threading issue, so I
guess we're out of luck there.
>> > >
>> > > I am setting aside Friday of this week to
go through current JIRA
>> > > items and apply all patches that have
been submitted, close any
>> > > issues that are recommended for closure,
and sort unscheduled items
>> > > into 2.3 if necessary. Sorry for the
delay.
>> > >
>> > > Dan
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > [image removed] rlucentexecu.net
>> > >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > rlucentexecu.net
>> > > 08/24/2007 04:37 PM
>> > >
>> > > Please respond to
>> > > muse-devws.apache.org
>> > >
>> > > [image removed]
>> > > To
>> > >
>> > > [image removed]
>> > > muse-devws.apache.org
>> > >
>> > > [image removed]
>> > > cc
>> > >
>> > > [image removed]
>> > >
>> > > [image removed]
>> > > Subject
>> > >
>> > > [image removed]
>> > > EMPTY_DOC thread stability issues
>> > >
>> > > [image removed]
>> > >
>> > > [image removed]
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Use of EMPTY_DOC (an instance of an empty
DOM Document element
>> within
>> > > class XmlUtils) among multiple threads
causes unpredictable results.
>> > > While testing a messaging service that
uses the Apache Muse WS-N
>> > > implementation, I noticed that 4-6
messages in a 1000 were being
>> dropped.
>> > > Notification messages were being sent at
a rate of 20 per second.
>> Where
>> > > the messages were dropped, the following
stack trace occurred:
>> > >
>> > > 2007-08-24 15:27:58,031 ERROR [STDERR]
Aug 24, 2007 3:27:58 PM
>> > > org.apache.muse.util.LoggingUtils
logError
>> > > INFO: There was an error while processing
a request:
>> > >
>> > > [ID = 'NoMessageContent'] The
NotificationMessage XML does not have
>> a
>> > > Message element. All messages must have a
message payload associated
>> with
>> > > them.
>> > >
>> > >       
org.apache.muse.ws.notification.impl.
>> > >
SimpleNotificationMessage.<init>(SimpleNotificationMes
sage.java:117)
>> > >       
org.apache.muse.ws.notification.impl.
>> > > NotificationMessageSerializer.fromXML
>> (NotificationMessageSerializer.java:46)
>> > >       
org.apache.muse.core.serializer.ArraySerializer.
>> > > fromXML(ArraySerializer.java:126)
>> > >       
org.apache.muse.ws.notification.impl.NotifyHandler.
>> > > fromXML(NotifyHandler.java:62)
>> > >       
org.apache.muse.core.SimpleResource.invoke
>> (SimpleResource.java:368)
>> > >       
org.apache.muse.core.routing.SimpleResourceRouter.
>> > > invoke(SimpleResourceRouter.java:290)
>> > >       
org.apache.muse.core.platform.axis2.AxisIsolationLayer.
>> > > invoke(AxisIsolationLayer.java:136)
>> > >       
org.apache.muse.core.platform.axis2.AxisIsolationLayer.
>> > >
handleRequest(AxisIsolationLayer.java:88)
>> > >       
sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor102.invoke(Unknown
Source)
>> > >       
sun.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.
>> > >
invoke(DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.java:25)
>> > >       
java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Method.java:324)
>> > >       
org.apache.axis2.receivers.RawXMLINOutMessageReceiver.
>> > >
invokeBusinessLogic(RawXMLINOutMessageReceiver.java:88)
>> > >       
org.apache.axis2.receivers.AbstractInOutSyncMessageReceiver.

>> > >
receive(AbstractInOutSyncMessageReceiver.java:39)
>> > >       
org.apache.axis2.engine.AxisEngine.receive(AxisEngine.java:4
93)
>> > >       
org.apache.axis2.transport.http.HTTPTransportUtils.
>> > >
processHTTPPostRequest(HTTPTransportUtils.java:319)
>> > >        22 more...
>> > >
>> > > All of the messages did in fact have a
message payload associated
>> with
>> > > them.  After further investigation I
noticed that
>> > > AxisEnvironment.convertToDOM is calling
>> XmlUtils.createElement(QName)
>> > > which uses the common EMPTY_DOC Document
instance.  Sharing
>> EMPTY_DOC
>> > > among multiple threads is not safe.
>> > >
>> > > I've also encountered this issue while
attempting to set the
>> producer
>> > > reference on a NotificationMessage.  The
code actually performs a
>> deep
>> > > copy of the EndpointReference class which
also relies on EMPTY_DOC.
>> I
>> > > hacked a work-around within my code that
avoided use of EMPTY_DOC
>> and
>> > > resolved the issue.
>> > >
>> > > A grep for EMPTY_DOC against the code
base turned up over 70
>> instances
>> of
>> > > its use.  That does not count methods
that use it that are called by
>> other
>> > > methods, so the actual usage is much
higher.  I'm going to open a
>> JIRA
>> bug
>> > > against this issue and submit patches for
it.
>> > >
>> > > Related to that, I've submitted patches
for other issues (MUSE-240,
>> > > MUSE-241) over a month ago that have not
been committed.  The patch
>> for
>> > > MUSE-240 also resolves MUSE-225.  Please
let me know the appropriate
>> > > process for non-committers to have
patches applied to the code base.
>> When
>> > > I submitted the JIRA issues they showed
up in this mailing list, but
>> is
>> an
>> > > explicit email more appropriate?  Let me
know how best to proceed.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks!
>> > >
>> > > Rich Lucente
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
>> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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