Total newbie wants to install BSD on G3 PDQ.

Hi,

I am a total newbie that would like to install BSD on my
Apple G3  
PDQ. I have looked at the archives and at the supported
hardware  
list. It seems like it should be possible, but it would be
great if  
someone could post some links on installing BSD and how to
tackle the  
OpenFirmware. I noticed that it may (??) be possible to boot
a BSD  
install CD and install without having to use BootX, which
would be  
great as I would like to be able to run my PDQ as a desktop
that only  
has BSD on it.

Cheers,

Brian

On Jun 23, 2006, at 3:30 PM, Brian Durant wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am a total newbie that would like to install BSD on
my Apple G3  
> PDQ. I have looked at the archives and at the supported
hardware  
> list. It seems like it should be possible, but it would
be great if  
> someone could post some links on installing BSD and how
to tackle  
> the OpenFirmware. I noticed that it may (??) be
possible to boot a  
> BSD install CD and install without having to use BootX,
which would  
> be great as I would like to be able to run my PDQ as a
desktop that  
> only has BSD on it.

Not only is it possible to run without BootX, it's required
if you  
want to use sysinst.

Frankly though, having run one of these machines myself,
there is  
little reason to run NetBSD on it.

- Brightness control doesn't work right
- No power management
- No hot swap support for drives
- onboard ethernet is slow even for 10baseT
- no accelerated Xserver if you can get the Rage Pro to work
at all.  
(It wasn't working as of 3.0, the xserver was missing,
leaving only  
Xmacppc 8 bit 256 color non accelerated video)
- No sleep or standby support
- Cardbus slots don't work (PCMCIA does last time I tried)
- No support for Rage Pro LT in machfb, so no accelerated
console,  
color support, or virtual terminals
- No sound playback even from an audio cd and driver is
unstable
- IDE controller is slow
- SCSI controller driver is unstable
- No PMU support so you can close the lid and the cpu is
still  
running full speed and it will damage the screen if left
that way.

On Jun 23, 2006, at 22:11, Chris Tribo wrote:

>
> On Jun 23, 2006, at 3:30 PM, Brian Durant wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am a total newbie that would like to install BSD
on my Apple G3  
>> PDQ. I have looked at the archives and at the
supported hardware  
>> list. It seems like it should be possible, but it
would be great  
>> if someone could post some links on installing BSD
and how to  
>> tackle the OpenFirmware. I noticed that it may (??)
be possible to  
>> boot a BSD install CD and install without having to
use BootX,  
>> which would be great as I would like to be able to
run my PDQ as a  
>> desktop that only has BSD on it.
>
> Not only is it possible to run without BootX, it's
required if you  
> want to use sysinst.
>
> Frankly though, having run one of these machines
myself, there is  
> little reason to run NetBSD on it.
>
> - Brightness control doesn't work right
> - No power management
> - No hot swap support for drives
> - onboard ethernet is slow even for 10baseT
> - no accelerated Xserver if you can get the Rage Pro to
work at  
> all. (It wasn't working as of 3.0, the xserver was
missing, leaving  
> only Xmacppc 8 bit 256 color non accelerated video)
> - No sleep or standby support
> - Cardbus slots don't work (PCMCIA does last time I
tried)
> - No support for Rage Pro LT in machfb, so no
accelerated console,  
> color support, or virtual terminals
> - No sound playback even from an audio cd and driver is
unstable
> - IDE controller is slow
> - SCSI controller driver is unstable
> - No PMU support so you can close the lid and the cpu
is still  
> running full speed and it will damage the screen if
left that way.

Wow, so the situation is even worse than with Linux? I
don't really  
get what the problem is. The argument always seems to be
based on the  
fact that there is such a plethora of different combinations
and  
makes of hardware (cards, motherboards, etc.), but on the
PPC  
platform, Apple has always maintained such a strict control
on the  
hardware. The only time when this policy changed was during
the clone  
period.

I haven't been able to get Linux working on either my
recently  
purchased G3 PDQ or my G5 single (PowerMac 9.1) - except for
Fedora  
Core PPC 5 (no sound). I would have thought that the BSDs
being more  
closely related to OS X, the situation would be less
problematic.  
Apple (claims at least, it) is supporting the Open Source
community  
and I assumed that would include opening up for Open Source
drivers  
for Apple gardware.

What are the alternatives for the G3 PDQ? Is it possible to
strip  
down Jaguar (OS X 10.2.8) so that it only runs opgradable X
Window  
apps? Many OS X apps have passed the cut off OS (Jaguar) for
the PDQ.  
I know that a modified BootX exists that allows installation
of  
Tiger, but I really just got the PDQ to run a Linux or BSD
system on.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Brian

On 24/6/2006 8:01, "Brian Durant"
<globetrotterdkdiplomatic-immunity.dk>
wrote:

>> 
> 
> Wow, so the situation is even worse than with Linux? I
don't really
> get what the problem is. The argument always seems to
be based on the
> fact that there is such a plethora of different
combinations and
> makes of hardware (cards, motherboards, etc.), but on
the PPC
> platform, Apple has always maintained such a strict
control on the
> hardware. The only time when this policy changed was
during the clone
> period.

The biggest problem comes from custom chips that apple
don't release  tech
specs on how to write drivers for them.

> I haven't been able to get Linux working on either my
recently
> purchased G3 PDQ or my G5 single (PowerMac 9.1) -
except for Fedora
> Core PPC 5 (no sound). I would have thought that the
BSDs being more
> closely related to OS X, the situation would be less
problematic.
> Apple (claims at least, it) is supporting the Open
Source community
> and I assumed that would include opening up for Open
Source drivers
> for Apple gardware.
> 
> What are the alternatives for the G3 PDQ? Is it
possible to strip
> down Jaguar (OS X 10.2.8) so that it only runs
opgradable X Window
> apps? Many OS X apps have passed the cut off OS
(Jaguar) for the PDQ.
> I know that a modified BootX exists that allows
installation of
> Tiger, but I really just got the PDQ to run a Linux or
BSD system on.
> 
> Any advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Brian
> 

I would have said that Yellow Dog Linux has the best Mac
linux support that
I know of but they seem to have disappeared recently.

You can get a copy of darwin (OS X without the gui) and run
that with X
Windows if you wish or leave it as a CLI machine depending
on what you want
to use it for.
http://www.gnu-darwin.org is putting together a system based on darwin and X
Windows.

You can download darwin from http://
www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/
and use netBSD pkgsrc to add what you want.



-- 

Shane Ambler
007Marketing.com
Shane007Marketing.com

On 6/24/06, Brian Durant <globetrotterdkdiplomatic-immunity.dk> wrote:
> Wow, so the situation is even worse than with Linux? I
don't really
> get what the problem is. The argument always seems to
be based on the
> fact that there is such a plethora of different
combinations and
> makes of hardware (cards, motherboards, etc.), but on
the PPC
> platform, Apple has always maintained such a strict
control on the
> hardware. The only time when this policy changed was
during the clone
> period.
>
> I haven't been able to get Linux working on either my
recently
> purchased G3 PDQ or my G5 single (PowerMac 9.1) -
except for Fedora
> Core PPC 5 (no sound). I would have thought that the
BSDs being more
> closely related to OS X, the situation would be less
problematic.
> Apple (claims at least, it) is supporting the Open
Source community
> and I assumed that would include opening up for Open
Source drivers
> for Apple gardware.

I've had good experiences with Ubuntu on PPC hardware.  You
might want
to give it a try.

> What are the alternatives for the G3 PDQ? Is it
possible to strip
> down Jaguar (OS X 10.2.8) so that it only runs
opgradable X Window
> apps? Many OS X apps have passed the cut off OS
(Jaguar) for the PDQ.
> I know that a modified BootX exists that allows
installation of
> Tiger, but I really just got the PDQ to run a Linux or
BSD system on.

I think you'd also install plain Darwin and use pkgsrc on
top of it to
install applications.

-- 
Julio M. Merino Vidal <jmmv84gmail.com>
The Julipedia - http://julipedia.blogs
pot.com/

On Jun 24, 2006, at 23:40, Julio M. Merino Vidal wrote:

> I think you'd also install plain Darwin and use pkgsrc
on top of it to
> install applications.

I downloaded Darwin 602.2 PPC as this seems to match closest
to  
Jaguar, where my G3 PDQ hits an OS roadblok, but despite the
CD i  
burned booting and the Apple logo showing up, the circle
just keeps  
spinning and never actually boots.

BTW, just wanted to mention how nice everyone on the list
has been  
treating me so far. I hope we aren't getting too OT for the
list? I'm  
just hoping that someone has some more ideas about getting
BSD  
installed on my PB.

Cheers,

Brian

thus Brian Durant spake:
> On Jun 24, 2006, at 23:40, Julio M. Merino Vidal wrote:
> 
>> I think you'd also install plain Darwin and use
pkgsrc on top of it to
>> install applications.
> 
> I downloaded Darwin 602.2 PPC as this seems to match
closest to Jaguar, 
> where my G3 PDQ hits an OS roadblok, but despite the CD
i burned booting 
> and the Apple logo showing up, the circle just keeps
spinning and never 
> actually boots.
> 
> BTW, just wanted to mention how nice everyone on the
list has been 
> treating me so far. I hope we aren't getting too OT
for the list? I'm 
> just hoping that someone has some more ideas about
getting BSD installed 
> on my PB.

hi brian,

i'm almost sure that the (most) recent Darwin does no
longer support 
your PowerBook. e.g., for the Wallstreet machines 10.2.x was
the last 
'officially' supported OS (and the appropriate Darwin
releases, of course).

for Mac OS X you can circumvent this limitation with
XPostFacto [0] -- 
maybe you can use this to boot Darwin?

i run 10.3.9 on a Wallstreet using this software; i have to
check the 
box that forces Tiger to use 'old' Mach (gfx) drivers, and
it runs very 
well 

[0] -- http:
//eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter/XPostFacto/

HTH,

-- 
Timo Schoeler | http://riscworks.net/~tis | timo.schoelerriscworks.net
RISCworks -- Perfection is a powerful message
ISP | POWER & PowerPC afficinados | Networking,
Security, BSD services
GPG Key fingerprint = B5F6 68A4 EC45 C309 6770  38C4 50E8
2740 9E0C F20A

NUKE BAVARIA! they killed their only bear there [0] and
their prime 
minister meets with Nazis to celebrate their 'heroism'
[1].

[0] -- http://de.wikipedia.
org/wiki/JJ1
[1] -- http://www.wdr.de/tv/monitor/beitrag.phtml?bid=404&
amp;sid=91

On Jun 26, 2006, at 17:24, Timo Schoeler wrote:

> thus Brian Durant spake:
>> On Jun 24, 2006, at 23:40, Julio M. Merino Vidal
wrote:
>>> I think you'd also install plain Darwin and
use pkgsrc on top of  
>>> it to
>>> install applications.
>> I downloaded Darwin 602.2 PPC as this seems to
match closest to  
>> Jaguar, where my G3 PDQ hits an OS roadblok, but
despite the CD i  
>> burned booting and the Apple logo showing up, the
circle just  
>> keeps spinning and never actually boots.
>> BTW, just wanted to mention how nice everyone on
the list has been  
>> treating me so far. I hope we aren't getting too
OT for the list?  
>> I'm just hoping that someone has some more ideas
about getting BSD  
>> installed on my PB.
>
> hi brian,
>
> i'm almost sure that the (most) recent Darwin does no
longer  
> support your PowerBook. e.g., for the Wallstreet
machines 10.2.x  
> was the last 'officially' supported OS (and the
appropriate Darwin  
> releases, of course).
>
> for Mac OS X you can circumvent this limitation with
XPostFacto [0]  
> -- maybe you can use this to boot Darwin?
>
> i run 10.3.9 on a Wallstreet using this software; i
have to check  
> the box that forces Tiger to use 'old' Mach (gfx)
drivers, and it  
> runs very well 
>
> [0] -- http:
//eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter/XPostFacto/
>
> HTH,

OK, sounds good. I'll give it a try. BTW, you posted
earlier that I  
should I should download netBSD pkgsrc. I don't know at
this time how  
Darwin works or how to compare that to NetBSD. Can I just
follow the  
instructions at:

http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/software/pa
ckages.html#binary

(?)

Cheers,

Brian

> >I haven't been able to get Linux working on either
my recently
> >purchased G3 PDQ or my G5 single (PowerMac 9.1) -
except for Fedora
> >Core PPC 5 (no sound). I would have thought that
the BSDs being more
> 
> I've had good experiences with Ubuntu on PPC hardware.
 You might want
> to give it a try.
 
Yes.  I've also found that Debian/Ubuntu have good support
for PPC
hardware.  ...no experience with any G3 powerbooks though.

I think NetBSD is a much more elegant system, but, if
you're at an
impasse with NetBSD, you may want to try either of those. 
The
installers are extremely newbie-friendly.  And you can use
the Debian
package manager at the same time as pkgsrc if you want.

-Rob

On Jun 28, 2006, at 17:23, Rob Hamrick wrote:

>
>>> I haven't been able to get Linux working on
either my recently
>>> purchased G3 PDQ or my G5 single (PowerMac 9.1)
- except for Fedora
>>> Core PPC 5 (no sound). I would have thought
that the BSDs being more
>>
>> I've had good experiences with Ubuntu on PPC
hardware.  You might  
>> want
>> to give it a try.
>
> Yes.  I've also found that Debian/Ubuntu have good
support for PPC
> hardware.  ...no experience with any G3 powerbooks
though.
>
> I think NetBSD is a much more elegant system, but, if
you're at an
> impasse with NetBSD, you may want to try either of
those.  The
> installers are extremely newbie-friendly.  And you can
use the Debian
> package manager at the same time as pkgsrc if you want.
>
> -Rob

Thanks for the advice. I am a huge fan of Debian and Ubuntu,
but as I  
posted earlier, I have only been able to get Fedora working
on my G5  
so far. (With Fedora, you are forced to dump the old and
install the  
new version every time a new version number is finished
(i.e. 4, 5,  
6) and I don't want to have to do that with my hardware
problems from  
distro to distro and version to version. I have no idea what
could  
crop up in a new version. That is why I thought I would try
a BSD  
flavor. Debian Sarge (3.1r2) has a serious problem with the
SATA  
driver blocking access to CD drive in installations from CD
and Etch  
beta 2 has an issue not being able to detect USB keyboards.
Etch also  
has bug that show up in the Ubuntu flavors with complaints
about a  
'module unknown not found', then it tries to mount
/dev/sdb3 on /root  
(which fails with a 'no such device'), then comes a
"no such file or  
directory' and then the system defaults into BusyBox and I
get the  
error "/bin/sh: can't access tty: job conrol turned
off". This issue  
also exists when I try to install on my daughter's IBM PC
(which is  
about as generic as you can get for Linux, seen from a
hardware point  
of view).

An install with the "desktop" or
"live" CD version of (Xu), (Ku) or  
(U)buntu Dapper reaches the GTK login screen and then
freezes. This  
may be related to similar behavior that I have seen with
sound card  
issues on the G5 in earlier versions of Ubuntu and Fedora
Core 4.  
Lastly, none of the above mentioned distros have sorted out
the  
thermal control issues on the G5 single, where the fans rev
like a  
jet engine. I'll refrain from expressing my opinion about
releasing  
new versions of a distro before they are fully sorted out.

Lastly and maybe most interesting, Darwin 602.2 (Jaguar)
spins its  
wheels, but never actually loads for an install (never get
past the  
Apple splash screen) and Darwin 801 (Tiger) puts out a huge
amount of  
error messages about packages not being found for
installation, etc.  
when I try to install it on my G5 single. Very frustrating,
but again  
thanks to all for advice. It seems to be a really good bunch
of  
people here 

Brian