hardware recommendation for large surgemail/webmail system

i may have the potential for gaining a new customer who
would have 
30,000 email accounts in a webmail only environment.

since this is an school district, and the email system is
for students 
only (k - 12), i believe the system would be somewhat
lightly used.

i'm thinking of three identical machines running opensuse,
two would run 
surgemail with mirroring and the third would be an apache
webmail 
machine connecting to surgemail via a 100Mb/sec (or better)
switch on a 
192.168 network.

the machines would have dual quadcore cpus, 6MB RAM, and 4
500MB SATA II 
drives configured as raid5 with hot spare using a 3ware raid
controller. 
  this would yield just under 1TB of storage.

is this overkill or underkill for this many users?

any comments from y'all who run large installations would be
much 
appreciated.

david camm
advanced web systems
keller, tx

That should work but a side issue is the requirement in
Texas for 
schools to archive all e-mail.  It can fill up fast.

Lee

David Camm wrote:
> i may have the potential for gaining a new customer who
would have 
> 30,000 email accounts in a webmail only environment.
>
> since this is an school district, and the email system
is for students 
> only (k - 12), i believe the system would be somewhat
lightly used.
>
> i'm thinking of three identical machines running
opensuse, two would 
> run surgemail with mirroring and the third would be an
apache webmail 
> machine connecting to surgemail via a 100Mb/sec (or
better) switch on 
> a 192.168 network.
>
> the machines would have dual quadcore cpus, 6MB RAM,
and 4 500MB SATA 
> II drives configured as raid5 with hot spare using a
3ware raid 
> controller.  this would yield just under 1TB of
storage.
>
> is this overkill or underkill for this many users?
>
> any comments from y'all who run large installations
would be much 
> appreciated.
>
> david camm
> advanced web systems
> keller, tx
>
>
>

Hopefully the RAM count is a typo.   I'm not sure where you
can even 
find a mere six megs anymore 

Though, don't be too surprised if the mail count is higher
than you 
anticipated.   A friend is a sysadmin
for a school district and last year moved their email out to
Google and 
immediately saw a huge chunk
of their DS3 consumed by the people utilizing webmail.  

David Camm wrote:
> i may have the potential for gaining a new customer who
would have 
> 30,000 email accounts in a webmail only environment.
>
> since this is an school district, and the email system
is for students 
> only (k - 12), i believe the system would be somewhat
lightly used.
>
> i'm thinking of three identical machines running
opensuse, two would 
> run surgemail with mirroring and the third would be an
apache webmail 
> machine connecting to surgemail via a 100Mb/sec (or
better) switch on 
> a 192.168 network.
>
> the machines would have dual quadcore cpus, 6MB RAM,
and 4 500MB SATA 
> II drives configured as raid5 with hot spare using a
3ware raid 
> controller.  this would yield just under 1TB of
storage.
>
> is this overkill or underkill for this many users?
>
> any comments from y'all who run large installations
would be much 
> appreciated.
>
> david camm
> advanced web systems
> keller, tx
>
>
>

David Camm wrote:
> i may have the potential for gaining a new customer who
would have 
> 30,000 email accounts in a webmail only environment.
>
> since this is an school district, and the email system
is for students 
> only (k - 12), i believe the system would be somewhat
lightly used.
>
> i'm thinking of three identical machines running
opensuse, two would 
> run surgemail with mirroring and the third would be an
apache webmail 
> machine connecting to surgemail via a 100Mb/sec (or
better) switch on 
> a 192.168 network.
>
> the machines would have dual quadcore cpus, 6MB RAM,
and 4 500MB SATA 
> II drives configured as raid5 with hot spare using a
3ware raid 
> controller.  this would yield just under 1TB of
storage.
>
> is this overkill or underkill for this many users?
>
> any comments from y'all who run large installations
would be much 
> appreciated.
>
> david camm
> advanced web systems
> keller, tx
>
>
>
>
>
If it's going to be webmail only, you might want to take a
look at 
google apps.  I believe it's free for schools.  You would
get a much 
slicker web interface, virtually no spam, and low
administrative overhead. 


If you do decide to buy hardware and go the netwin route,
depending on 
traffic that hardware might work.  You need to establish
approximately 
how many messages you are going to be handling per day. 
Disk I/O 
typically becomes an issue before anything else.  If you try
and use an 
el cheapo 4 port SATA raid card it will fall flat on it's
face.  Based 
on the number of users, I would think you'd want to look at
a higher end 
raid card, and most likely look at using raid 10.

dual quadcore cpu's might be overkill for processing power,
but 
depending on your budget and the price delta you may wish to
go that 
route anyway for future proofing reasons.  Depending on how
frequently 
people are going to be using it, you may need more than one
webmail 
machine.  It might be worthwhile to get 2 servers for
webmail with 
slightly lower specs instead of one big beast box.  The
webmail machines 
won't need much for storage.

Unless you know any specifics about the kind of use it's
going to see, 
it's kind of hard to give anything other than a general
guidelines as to 
what hardware you'll need.

-Matt

Robert Fisher wrote:
> Hopefully the RAM count is a typo.   I'm not sure where
you can even 
> find a mere six megs anymore 
> 

duh! of COURSE i meant 6 gig.


> Though, don't be too surprised if the mail count is
higher than you 
> anticipated.   A friend is a sysadmin
> for a school district and last year moved their email
out to Google and 
> immediately saw a huge chunk
> of their DS3 consumed by the people utilizing webmail.

keep in mind this is for students only, not staff. and i
don't know how 
much use of email kids below possibly grade 5 would have. if
my 12 1/2 
year old granddaughter is any indication, they all text.
email is a 
sometime thing.



> David Camm wrote:
>> i may have the potential for gaining a new customer
who would have 
>> 30,000 email accounts in a webmail only
environment.
>>
>> since this is an school district, and the email
system is for students 
>> only (k - 12), i believe the system would be
somewhat lightly used.
>>
>> i'm thinking of three identical machines running
opensuse, two would 
>> run surgemail with mirroring and the third would be
an apache webmail 
>> machine connecting to surgemail via a 100Mb/sec (or
better) switch on 
>> a 192.168 network.
>>
>> the machines would have dual quadcore cpus, 6MB
RAM, and 4 500MB SATA 
>> II drives configured as raid5 with hot spare using
a 3ware raid 
>> controller.  this would yield just under 1TB of
storage.
>>
>> is this overkill or underkill for this many users?
>>
>> any comments from y'all who run large installations
would be much 
>> appreciated.
>>
>> david camm
>> advanced web systems
>> keller, tx
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 

Matt wrote:
> David Camm wrote:
>> i may have the potential for gaining a new customer
who would have 
>> 30,000 email accounts in a webmail only
environment.
>>
>> since this is an school district, and the email
system is for students 
>> only (k - 12), i believe the system would be
somewhat lightly used.
>>
>> i'm thinking of three identical machines running
opensuse, two would 
>> run surgemail with mirroring and the third would be
an apache webmail 
>> machine connecting to surgemail via a 100Mb/sec (or
better) switch on 
>> a 192.168 network.
>>
>> the machines would have dual quadcore cpus, 6MB
RAM, and 4 500MB SATA 
>> II drives configured as raid5 with hot spare using
a 3ware raid 
>> controller.  this would yield just under 1TB of
storage.
>>
>> is this overkill or underkill for this many users?
>>
>> any comments from y'all who run large installations
would be much 
>> appreciated.
>>
>> david camm
>> advanced web systems
>> keller, tx
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> If it's going to be webmail only, you might want to
take a look at 
> google apps.  I believe it's free for schools.  You
would get a much 
> slicker web interface, virtually no spam, and low
administrative overhead.

i'm hoping to make some money here <GRIN!!!!>

> 
> If you do decide to buy hardware and go the netwin
route, depending on 
> traffic that hardware might work.  You need to
establish approximately 
> how many messages you are going to be handling per day.
 Disk I/O 
> typically becomes an issue before anything else.  If
you try and use an 
> el cheapo 4 port SATA raid card it will fall flat on
it's face.  Based 
> on the number of users, I would think you'd want to
look at a higher end 
> raid card, and most likely look at using raid 10.

i've used the 3ware card on several other machines -
including some 
fairly heavily loaded web servers. it's not cheap, and, at
least in my 
experience works like a champ. another advantage is that the
drivers are 
integrated into opensuse. you put in the install dvd, and it
finds array.

> 
> dual quadcore cpu's might be overkill for processing
power, but 
> depending on your budget and the price delta you may
wish to go that 
> route anyway for future proofing reasons.  Depending on
how frequently 
> people are going to be using it, you may need more than
one webmail 
> machine.  It might be worthwhile to get 2 servers for
webmail with 
> slightly lower specs instead of one big beast box.  The
webmail machines 
> won't need much for storage.

agreed.....

> 
> Unless you know any specifics about the kind of use
it's going to see, 
> it's kind of hard to give anything other than a general
guidelines as to 
> what hardware you'll need.
> 
> -Matt
> 
> 
> 

I would surmise that your activity and load will be tilted
to the hours from
after school till around midnight, with a slight spike in
the morning before
school.  Probably not much activity during school hours.

The real question, is how many kids will actually use this,
rather than
their own parent provided email addresses, or is the school
system making
this a mandatory place for communication with their
students?

My son attends Indiana University in Bloomington, and their
entire web
system is geared around communication between student and
professors, with
homework being submitted online via email, course
assignments being sent to
students via email, so there is a bunch of activity
happening.

They run a full Windows Active Directory system, but Email
is NOT on
Exchange, at least not the bulk of the students mail.  They
can connect
either via a stand alone client (Outlook, OE, Thunderbird),
or via webmail,
it's the students choice.  At the Bloomington campus alone,
there are 34,000
students. 



Glenn Meadows
Sheridan Square Entertainment
-----Original Message-----
From: David Camm [mailto:dcammadvwebsys.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:06 PM
To: surgemail-listnetwinsite.com
Subject: Re: [SurgeMail List] hardware recommendation for
large
surgemail/webmail system



Matt wrote:
> David Camm wrote:
>> i may have the potential for gaining a new customer
who would have 
>> 30,000 email accounts in a webmail only
environment.
>>
>> since this is an school district, and the email
system is for 
>> students only (k - 12), i believe the system would
be somewhat lightly
used.
>>
>> i'm thinking of three identical machines running
opensuse, two would 
>> run surgemail with mirroring and the third would be
an apache webmail 
>> machine connecting to surgemail via a 100Mb/sec (or
better) switch on 
>> a 192.168 network.
>>
>> the machines would have dual quadcore cpus, 6MB
RAM, and 4 500MB SATA 
>> II drives configured as raid5 with hot spare using
a 3ware raid 
>> controller.  this would yield just under 1TB of
storage.
>>
>> is this overkill or underkill for this many users?
>>
>> any comments from y'all who run large installations
would be much 
>> appreciated.
>>
>> david camm
>> advanced web systems
>> keller, tx
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> If it's going to be webmail only, you might want to
take a look at 
> google apps.  I believe it's free for schools.  You
would get a much 
> slicker web interface, virtually no spam, and low
administrative overhead.

i'm hoping to make some money here <GRIN!!!!>

> 
> If you do decide to buy hardware and go the netwin
route, depending on 
> traffic that hardware might work.  You need to
establish approximately 
> how many messages you are going to be handling per day.
 Disk I/O 
> typically becomes an issue before anything else.  If
you try and use 
> an el cheapo 4 port SATA raid card it will fall flat on
it's face.  
> Based on the number of users, I would think you'd want
to look at a 
> higher end raid card, and most likely look at using
raid 10.

i've used the 3ware card on several other machines -
including some fairly
heavily loaded web servers. it's not cheap, and, at least in
my experience
works like a champ. another advantage is that the drivers
are integrated
into opensuse. you put in the install dvd, and it finds
array.

> 
> dual quadcore cpu's might be overkill for processing
power, but 
> depending on your budget and the price delta you may
wish to go that 
> route anyway for future proofing reasons.  Depending on
how frequently 
> people are going to be using it, you may need more than
one webmail 
> machine.  It might be worthwhile to get 2 servers for
webmail with 
> slightly lower specs instead of one big beast box.  The
webmail machines 
> won't need much for storage.

agreed.....

> 
> Unless you know any specifics about the kind of use
it's going to see, 
> it's kind of hard to give anything other than a general
guidelines as to 
> what hardware you'll need.
> 
> -Matt
> 
> 
> 

Glenn Meadows wrote:
> I would surmise that your activity and load will be
tilted to the hours from
> after school till around midnight, with a slight spike
in the morning before
> school.  Probably not much activity during school
hours.

that's what i would surmise as well.

> 
> The real question, is how many kids will actually use
this, rather than
> their own parent provided email addresses, or is the
school system making
> this a mandatory place for communication with their
students?

the district already provides facilites to communicate
between parents 
and staff electronically, this would be, as i understand it,
just a 
'kid' thing. it's not intended to replace existing formal
communication 
applications.

> 
> My son attends Indiana University in Bloomington, and
their entire web
> system is geared around communication between student
and professors, with
> homework being submitted online via email, course
assignments being sent to
> students via email, so there is a bunch of activity
happening.
> 
> They run a full Windows Active Directory system, but
Email is NOT on
> Exchange, at least not the bulk of the students mail. 
They can connect
> either via a stand alone client (Outlook, OE,
Thunderbird), or via webmail,
> it's the students choice.  At the Bloomington campus
alone, there are 34,000
> students. 
> 
> 
> 
> Glenn Meadows
> Sheridan Square Entertainment
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Camm [mailto:dcammadvwebsys.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:06 PM
> To: surgemail-listnetwinsite.com
> Subject: Re: [SurgeMail List] hardware recommendation
for large
> surgemail/webmail system
> 
> 
> 
> Matt wrote:
>> David Camm wrote:
>>> i may have the potential for gaining a new
customer who would have 
>>> 30,000 email accounts in a webmail only
environment.
>>>
>>> since this is an school district, and the email
system is for 
>>> students only (k - 12), i believe the system
would be somewhat lightly
> used.
>>> i'm thinking of three identical machines
running opensuse, two would 
>>> run surgemail with mirroring and the third
would be an apache webmail 
>>> machine connecting to surgemail via a 100Mb/sec
(or better) switch on 
>>> a 192.168 network.
>>>
>>> the machines would have dual quadcore cpus, 6MB
RAM, and 4 500MB SATA 
>>> II drives configured as raid5 with hot spare
using a 3ware raid 
>>> controller.  this would yield just under 1TB of
storage.
>>>
>>> is this overkill or underkill for this many
users?
>>>
>>> any comments from y'all who run large
installations would be much 
>>> appreciated.
>>>
>>> david camm
>>> advanced web systems
>>> keller, tx
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> If it's going to be webmail only, you might want to
take a look at 
>> google apps.  I believe it's free for schools.  You
would get a much 
>> slicker web interface, virtually no spam, and low
administrative overhead.
> 
> i'm hoping to make some money here <GRIN!!!!>
> 
>> If you do decide to buy hardware and go the netwin
route, depending on 
>> traffic that hardware might work.  You need to
establish approximately 
>> how many messages you are going to be handling per
day.  Disk I/O 
>> typically becomes an issue before anything else. 
If you try and use 
>> an el cheapo 4 port SATA raid card it will fall
flat on it's face.  
>> Based on the number of users, I would think you'd
want to look at a 
>> higher end raid card, and most likely look at using
raid 10.
> 
> i've used the 3ware card on several other machines -
including some fairly
> heavily loaded web servers. it's not cheap, and, at
least in my experience
> works like a champ. another advantage is that the
drivers are integrated
> into opensuse. you put in the install dvd, and it finds
array.
> 
>> dual quadcore cpu's might be overkill for
processing power, but 
>> depending on your budget and the price delta you
may wish to go that 
>> route anyway for future proofing reasons. 
Depending on how frequently 
>> people are going to be using it, you may need more
than one webmail 
>> machine.  It might be worthwhile to get 2 servers
for webmail with 
>> slightly lower specs instead of one big beast box. 
The webmail machines 
>> won't need much for storage.
> 
> agreed.....
> 
>> Unless you know any specifics about the kind of use
it's going to see, 
>> it's kind of hard to give anything other than a
general guidelines as to 
>> what hardware you'll need.
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 

David,

Do you know what the plans/rules are for the email accounts
once the 
kids leave that school? There are a number of Universities
that offer 
alumni a free school domain email account. Will this school
do something 
similar? That would have an impact on your future growth
(and 
potentially your continued business).

Dale

David Camm wrote:
> Glenn Meadows wrote:
>> I would surmise that your activity and load will be
tilted to the 
>> hours from
>> after school till around midnight, with a slight
spike in the morning 
>> before
>> school.  Probably not much activity during school
hours.
>
> that's what i would surmise as well.
>
>>
>> The real question, is how many kids will actually
use this, rather than
>> their own parent provided email addresses, or is
the school system 
>> making
>> this a mandatory place for communication with their
students?
>
> the district already provides facilites to communicate
between parents 
> and staff electronically, this would be, as i
understand it, just a 
> 'kid' thing. it's not intended to replace existing
formal 
> communication applications.
>
>>
>> My son attends Indiana University in Bloomington,
and their entire web
>> system is geared around communication between
student and professors, 
>> with
>> homework being submitted online via email, course
assignments being 
>> sent to
>> students via email, so there is a bunch of activity
happening.
>>
>> They run a full Windows Active Directory system,
but Email is NOT on
>> Exchange, at least not the bulk of the students
mail.  They can connect
>> either via a stand alone client (Outlook, OE,
Thunderbird), or via 
>> webmail,
>> it's the students choice.  At the Bloomington
campus alone, there are 
>> 34,000
>> students.
>>
>>
>> Glenn Meadows
>> Sheridan Square Entertainment
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Camm [mailto:dcammadvwebsys.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 
>> 2008 5:06 PM
>> To: surgemail-listnetwinsite.com
>> Subject: Re: [SurgeMail List] hardware
recommendation for large
>> surgemail/webmail system
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt wrote:
>>> David Camm wrote:
>>>> i may have the potential for gaining a new
customer who would have 
>>>> 30,000 email accounts in a webmail only
environment.
>>>>
>>>> since this is an school district, and the
email system is for 
>>>> students only (k - 12), i believe the
system would be somewhat lightly
>> used.
>>>> i'm thinking of three identical machines
running opensuse, two 
>>>> would run surgemail with mirroring and the
third would be an apache 
>>>> webmail machine connecting to surgemail via
a 100Mb/sec (or better) 
>>>> switch on a 192.168 network.
>>>>
>>>> the machines would have dual quadcore cpus,
6MB RAM, and 4 500MB 
>>>> SATA II drives configured as raid5 with hot
spare using a 3ware 
>>>> raid controller.  this would yield just
under 1TB of storage.
>>>>
>>>> is this overkill or underkill for this many
users?
>>>>
>>>> any comments from y'all who run large
installations would be much 
>>>> appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> david camm
>>>> advanced web systems
>>>> keller, tx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> If it's going to be webmail only, you might
want to take a look at 
>>> google apps.  I believe it's free for schools. 
You would get a much 
>>> slicker web interface, virtually no spam, and
low administrative 
>>> overhead.
>>
>> i'm hoping to make some money here
<GRIN!!!!>
>>
>>> If you do decide to buy hardware and go the
netwin route, depending 
>>> on traffic that hardware might work.  You need
to establish 
>>> approximately how many messages you are going
to be handling per 
>>> day.  Disk I/O typically becomes an issue
before anything else.  If 
>>> you try and use an el cheapo 4 port SATA raid
card it will fall flat 
>>> on it's face.  Based on the number of users, I
would think you'd 
>>> want to look at a higher end raid card, and
most likely look at 
>>> using raid 10.
>>
>> i've used the 3ware card on several other machines
- including some 
>> fairly
>> heavily loaded web servers. it's not cheap, and, at
least in my 
>> experience
>> works like a champ. another advantage is that the
drivers are integrated
>> into opensuse. you put in the install dvd, and it
finds array.
>>
>>> dual quadcore cpu's might be overkill for
processing power, but 
>>> depending on your budget and the price delta
you may wish to go that 
>>> route anyway for future proofing reasons. 
Depending on how 
>>> frequently people are going to be using it, you
may need more than 
>>> one webmail machine.  It might be worthwhile to
get 2 servers for 
>>> webmail with slightly lower specs instead of
one big beast box.  The 
>>> webmail machines won't need much for storage.
>>
>> agreed.....
>>
>>> Unless you know any specifics about the kind of
use it's going to 
>>> see, it's kind of hard to give anything other
than a general 
>>> guidelines as to what hardware you'll need.
>>>
>>> -Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>