List Info

Thread: Re: botnets: web servers, end-systems and Vint Cerf




Re: botnets: web servers, end-systems and Vint Cerf
country flaguser name
United States
2007-02-16 07:02:10
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007, Eric Gauthier wrote:
> Heya,
> 
> > > And the fact that web servers are getting
botted is just the cycle of
> > > reincarnation - it wasn't that long ago that
.edu's had a reputation of
> > > getting pwned for the exact same reasons that
webservers are targets now:
> > > easy to attack, and usually lots of
bang-for-buck in pipe size and similar.
> > 
> > You mean they aren't now? Do we have any EDU
admins around who want to
> > tell us how bad it still is, despite attempts at
working on this?
> > 
> > Dorms are basically large honey nets. 
> 
> I run the network for a University with about 12,000
students and 12,000
> computers in our dormitories.  We, like many other
Universities, have spent the 
> last five or six years putting systems in place that
are both reactive and 
> preventative.  From my perspective, the issues are
still there but I'm not 
> sure that I agree with your implications.
> 
> Do we still have "compromised" systems?  Yes.
 
> Is the number of "compromosed" systems at any
time large?  No.
> Is the situation out of control?  No.
> 
> Email me off-list if you want more details.  IMHO, Its
too bad broadband 

Will do, and also below...

> providers have not yet picked up on what the
Universities have done.

Thank you Eric. 

Can you elaborate a bit on what universities have done which
would be
relevant to service providers here?

> 
> Eric 
> 


Re: botnets: web servers, end-systems and Vint Cerf
country flaguser name
United States
2007-02-26 09:55:34
Gadi,

> Can you elaborate a bit on what universities have done
which would be
> relevant to service providers here?

Generally, we've found that most end users don't even know
that their systems 
are infected - be it with spyware, bots, etc - and are happy
when we can help
them clear things up as they usually aren't in a position to
fix things on their
own.  I know that the really bad analogy of driving a car
has been used a few 
times in this thread, but I think part of the analogy is
true.  If someone owns
and uses a car but the car has no indicator lights to say
that something
is wrong, its hard to believe that the driver will be able
to fix the problem
or even know to contact the repair shop.  We've tried to
give our users
that "indicator" light and some help repairing it

Most Universities have adopted the general strategies that
came out of the 
Internet2/Educause Salsa-NetAuth working group (see links at
the end).  This
general type of architecture has network components doing
registration, 
detection, end-user notification, host isolation, and
auto-remediation.  In
many cases, most of these systems are already in place and
they just need
to be tied together.

Where I work, we use a captive-portal like system to do MAC
registration
and then, if our detection systems determine a host has an
issue, we
force the host back to that captive portal and display a
self-help page
for cleaning up the particular problem that the user has
with their system.
At the end of the process, we provide a mechanism for them
to escape the
captive portal and regain network access automatically. 
From the statistics 
that we collect from our tools, we used to see about a third
of the Windows 
systems come onto our campus at the beginging of the year
with some sort of 
infection, with 90% of those cleaned automatically during
our registration 
process (we have an initial cleaning tool for new systems). 
Of the systems 
that make it past this first round, 90% appear to be caught
by our sensors, 
sent back to the captive portal, and are able to
self-remediate using our 
cleaning tool.

Other Universities have similar systems, but invert the
"registration" idea.
For example, one place allows open network access until
their sensors detect
a problem with a given host.  At that point, the host is
logged into their
system with an indication of the problem, and then shunted
back to the captive
portal with instructions for cleaning up the system.

As Sean and others pointed out, you need a business case for
something like
this.  In our case, we already had a help desk, tools and
documentation for 
cleaning up infected systems, a sensor network, web servers,
DNS servers with 
Views support, and a DHCP system that easily allowed the
mapping of classes of 
MACs into pools.  The cost for us was in adding the database
to track things, 
some development time to build the web interface, and some
of the hooks that
link everything together.  The hard savings for us came from
fewer calls to the 
help desk and fewer incidents for our security team to
handle (i.e. less staff
or slower growth in staff).  We also gained the soft benifit
from students
believing that the network actually works and works well.


Eric 



Here are some presentations that I've done:

Defending Against Yourself
Automated Network Techniques to Protect and Defend Against
Your End Users
http://
www.roxanne.org/~eric/NERCOMP-2006.ppt
(February, 2006)

Network Architecture for Automatic Security and Policy
Enforcement
http://events.internet2.ed
u/2005/fall-mm/sessionDetails.cfm?session=2244&event=239

(Sept 2005)

Life on a University Network: 
An Architecture for Automatically Detecting, Isolating, and
Cleaning Infected Hosts
http://ww
w.nanog.org/mtg-0402/gauthier.html
(February, 2004)


[1-2]

about | contact  Other archives ( Real Estate discussion Medical topics )