RE: Question on 7.0.0.0/8

>Is it just me or does all of this have the odor of 
>amateur hour around it? Inconsistencies between 
>the various databases, IANA can't make 
>ht
tp://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space 
>such that it's unambiguously parsable, ARIN backdates 
>some of the address space it gives out, RIPE used to 
>register address space under "UK" while that's
not a 
>valid country code (they fixed that last year, though),
and so on.

Yes, I agree that it seems amateurish. I think that about 10
years ago a
lot of people became satisfied with the status quo and the
technology of
IANA and the RIRs stagnated. The world moved on around them
but you
still see things like IANA's non-parseable text file and
ARIN's SWIP
system using text templates in email messages. RIPE is not
that far
ahead either, although they have made a bit of effort.

As a result, most people consider William Leibzon and the
Bogon project
to be, collectively, the authoritative source for
information on whose
IP address that is. That's because William and the Bogon
project, act
authoritative, and take some pains to provide comprehensive
data. At the
same time, IANA and the RIRs just keep doing the same old
thing as their
data and systems slowly rot away. Anyone who has ever had to
deal with
data cleansing in a corporate environment knows what I mean
about data
rot. Systems similarly degrade when the world around them
changes. For
instance, in Victorian times a wonderful home cleaning
device was
invented called a vacuum cleaner. It worked like a modern
pool vacuum in
that you pumped the handle to produce suction. It was an
amazing device
that could clean the dust out of rugs without hauling them
outside,
hanging them up and beating them. In todays world it is a
quaint museum
piece because electricity is now ubiquitous. But the device
still works
today as well as it did in Victorian times. That is how
systems degrade.

Why doesn't IANA operate a whois server?

Why don't they publish a more detailled explanation field in
each IANA
allocation record so that they can explain the precise
status of each
block?

Why doesn't IANA and the RIRs collectively get off their
butts and
actually make an "authoritative IP address allocation
directory" one of
their goals?

And why don't they do all this with some 21st century
technology?

--Michael Dillon

On Apr 15, 2007, at 2:58 PM, <michael.dillonbt.com> wrote:

> And why don't they do all this with some 21st century
technology?

Do they have the requisite staff and funding?

------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Roland Dobbins <rdobbinscisco.com> //
408.527.6376 voice

         Words that come from a machine have no soul.

                       -- Duong Van Ngo

On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 22:58 +0100, michael.dillonbt.com
wrote:
> As a result, most people consider William Leibzon and
the Bogon project
> to be, collectively, the authoritative source for
information on whose
> IP address that is. That's because William and the
Bogon project, act
> authoritative, and take some pains to provide
comprehensive data. 

I truly want to believe that, and I do appreciate the effort
that Willam
and Elan put into this.  That said, I do near-daily diffs
between
changes made to
http://completewhois.com/bog
ons/data/data-bgp-announced/announced_bogon-cidr-all.txt


Here are today's deletions from Friday's list, do bogons
really change
that frequently?

 76.0.0.0/13
 76.0.0.0/19
 133.1.0.0/16
 133.2.0.0/16
 133.3.0.0/16
 133.4.0.0/16
 133.5.0.0/16
 133.6.0.0/16
 133.7.0.0/16
 133.8.0.0/16
 133.9.0.0/16
 133.10.0.0/16
 133.11.0.0/16
 133.12.0.0/16
 133.13.0.0/16
 133.13.0.0/17
 133.14.0.0/16
 133.15.0.0/16
 133.16.0.0/16
 133.17.0.0/16
 133.18.0.0/16
 133.19.0.0/16
 133.20.0.0/16
 133.21.0.0/16
 133.23.0.0/16
 133.24.0.0/16
 133.25.0.0/16
 133.26.0.0/16
 133.27.0.0/16
 133.28.0.0/16
 133.29.0.0/16
 133.30.0.0/16
 133.31.0.0/16
 133.33.0.0/16
 133.34.0.0/16
 133.35.0.0/16
 133.36.0.0/16
 133.37.0.0/16
 133.38.0.0/16
 133.39.0.0/16
 133.40.0.0/16
 133.41.0.0/16
 133.42.0.0/16
 133.43.0.0/16
 133.44.0.0/16
 133.45.0.0/16
 133.46.0.0/16
 133.47.0.0/16
 133.48.0.0/16
 133.49.0.0/16
 133.50.0.0/16
 133.51.0.0/16
 133.52.0.0/16
 133.52.0.0/17
 133.53.0.0/16
 133.54.0.0/16
 133.55.0.0/16
 133.56.0.0/16
 133.57.0.0/16
 133.58.0.0/16
 133.60.0.0/16
 133.62.0.0/16
 133.63.0.0/16
 133.64.0.0/16
 133.65.0.0/16
 133.66.0.0/16
 133.67.0.0/16
 133.68.0.0/16
 133.69.0.0/16
 133.70.0.0/16
 133.71.0.0/16
 133.72.0.0/16
 133.73.0.0/16
 133.74.0.0/16
 133.75.0.0/16
 133.77.0.0/16
 133.78.0.0/16
 133.79.0.0/16
 133.80.0.0/16
 133.82.0.0/16
 133.83.0.0/16
 133.85.0.0/16
 133.86.0.0/16
 133.87.0.0/16
 133.88.0.0/16
 133.89.0.0/16
 133.91.0.0/16
 133.92.0.0/16
 133.94.0.0/16
 133.95.0.0/16
 133.96.0.0/16
 133.97.0.0/16
 133.98.0.0/16
 133.99.0.0/16
 133.100.0.0/16
 133.101.0.0/16
 133.102.0.0/16
 133.103.0.0/16
 133.104.0.0/16
 133.105.0.0/16
 133.106.0.0/16
 133.109.0.0/16
 133.111.0.0/16
 133.121.0.0/16
 133.125.0.0/17
 133.127.0.0/16
 133.130.0.0/16
 133.137.0.0/16
 133.138.0.0/16
 133.140.0.0/16
 133.145.0.0/16
 133.146.0.0/16
 133.148.0.0/16
 133.149.0.0/16
 133.152.0.0/16
 133.153.0.0/16
 133.158.0.0/16
 133.163.0.0/16
 133.164.0.0/16
 133.169.0.0/16
 133.170.0.0/16
 133.173.0.0/16
 133.176.0.0/16
 133.186.0.0/16
 133.187.0.0/16
 133.188.0.0/16
 133.192.0.0/16
 133.194.0.0/16
 133.205.0.0/16
 133.215.0.0/16
 133.216.0.0/16
 133.217.0.0/16
 133.218.0.0/16
 133.220.0.0/16
 133.221.0.0/16
 133.225.0.0/16
 133.226.0.0/16
 133.232.0.0/16
 133.235.0.0/16
 133.236.0.0/16
 133.237.0.0/16
 133.238.0.0/16
 133.240.0.0/16
 133.243.0.0/16
 133.245.0.0/16
 133.249.0.0/16
 133.250.0.0/16
 133.253.0.0/16
 133.254.0.0/16
 193.33.178.0/23

I'm just trying to get a complete (not constantly changing)
list of
bogons.

-Jim P.

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> I'm just trying to get a complete (not constantly
changing) list of
> bogons.

Eventually all the reserved for future allocation blocks
will be 
allocated for use, and will no longer be
"bogons."

That is independent of which blocks are routed or routable
on the 
Internet.

Once upon a time, the NIC (i.e. SRI-NIC) had a field for
"connected 
status" in their database of addresses.  There are
several network
blocks allocated, but not "connected" to the
Internet.

Perhaps IANA and the RIRs can bring "connected
status" back?

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>
> On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 22:58 +0100, michael.dillonbt.com
wrote:
> > As a result, most people consider William Leibzon
and the Bogon project
> > to be, collectively, the authoritative source for
information on whose
> > IP address that is. That's because William and the
Bogon project, act
> > authoritative, and take some pains to provide
comprehensive data.
>
> I truly want to believe that, and I do appreciate the
effort that Willam
> and Elan put into this.  That said, I do near-daily
diffs between
> changes made to
> http://completewhois.com/bog
ons/data/data-bgp-announced/announced_bogon-cidr-all.txt

>
> Here are today's deletions from Friday's list, do
bogons really change
> that frequently?

>  133.1.0.0/16
...
>  133.254.0.0/16
>  193.33.178.0/23

NetRange:   133.0.0.0 - 133.255.255.255
CIDR:       133.0.0.0/8
NetName:    JAPAN-INET
NetHandle:  NET-133-0-0-0-1
Parent:
NetType:    Direct Allocation

inetnum:        193.33.178.0 - 193.33.179.255
netname:        NOWIRES-PI
descr:          No Wires Ltd
country:        GB
org:            ORG-NWL1-RIPE
admin-c:        AT4098-RIPE
tech-c:         JC2953-RIPE
status:         ASSIGNED PI


neither of those seem to be bogons... but I could be wrong
in some way,
I'm sure.

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 michael.dillonbt.com wrote:

> As a result, most people consider William Leibzon and
the Bogon project
> to be, collectively, the authoritative source for
information on whose
> IP address that is. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If that's the case, all hope has been lost. 

> That's because William and the Bogon project, act
authoritative, and
> take some pains to provide comprehensive data. At the
same time, IANA
> and the RIRs just keep doing the same old thing as
their data and
> systems slowly rot away.

> Why doesn't IANA operate a whois server?
Why should they? What will it produce?

> Why don't they publish a more detailled explanation
field in each IANA
> allocation record so that they can explain the precise
status of each
> block?
Why should they?

> Why doesn't IANA and the RIRs collectively get off
their butts and
> actually make an "authoritative IP address
allocation directory" one of
> their goals?
> 
> And why don't they do all this with some 21st century
technology?
Why doesn't vwl help by giving ARIN his changelog, if any?

-alex

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Jim Popovitch wrote:

> On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 22:58 +0100, michael.dillonbt.com
wrote:
>> As a result, most people consider William Leibzon
and the Bogon project
>> to be, collectively, the authoritative source for
information on whose
>> IP address that is. That's because William and the
Bogon project, act
>> authoritative, and take some pains to provide
comprehensive data.

Its not authoritative. IANA and ARIN should be authoritative
unless
there are issues with their data as I for example raised. My
project
should be considered research with a lot of practical use
(but which
also with errors and bugs as with other research projects).

> I truly want to believe that, and I do appreciate the
effort that Willam
> and Elan put into this.  That said, I do near-daily
diffs between
> changes made to
> http://completewhois.com/bog
ons/data/data-bgp-announced/announced_bogon-cidr-all.txt

>
> Here are today's deletions from Friday's list, do
bogons really change
> that frequently?
>
> 76.0.0.0/13
> 76.0.0.0/19

Its same glitch I mentioned before, which is not entirely
fixed yet.
The data before was:
76.0.0.8/29
76.0.0.16/28
76.0.0.32/27
...
76.0.128.0/17
76.1.0.0/16
76.2.0.0/15
76.4.0.0/14

The correct entry is obviously 76.0.0.0/13

133/8 is special case because APNIC does not import this
data in their whois.
Completewhois collection system does separate whois query to
nic.ad.jp for 
each individual  /16 out of it to find which of the blocks
are and are not 
allocated. There are issues when data is not received
properly or when 
they change format; plus to that there is no 2nd way to
correlate the data 
as for example between RIR whois and statistics data. JPNIC
also at times 
does not respond so as a result of all this, I changed
collection to run 
not once a day but once/week (this was done over year ago)
and at times 
check data manually too. Last time this collection was run
was run is Apr 
15th 4am which produced the following _correct_ list of
bogons for 133/8
(this special data is at http://w
ww.completewhois.com/bogons/data/jp/):
133.0.0.0/16
133.22.0.0/16
133.59.0.0/16
133.61.0.0/16
133.81.0.0/16
133.90.0.0/16
133.93.0.0/16
133.107.0.0/16
133.112.0.0/16
133.124.0.0/16
133.143.0.0/16
133.147.0.0/16
133.156.0.0/16
133.171.0.0/16
133.174.0.0/16
133.177.0.0/16
133.178.0.0/15
133.195.0.0/16
133.212.0.0/16
133.230.0.0/15
133.234.0.0/16
133.239.0.0/16
133.246.0.0/16

However previous days the data looked like this:

133.0.0.0/16
133.1.0.0/30
133.2.0.0/30
133.3.0.0/30
...

So in fact it was improperly listing first 4 ips of the each
/16
(but not entire /16 as you printed). In actuallity its also
exactly
the same bug just manifesting itself in different way due to
how 
JPNIC collection is done.

> 193.33.178.0/23

inetnum:        193.33.178.0 - 193.33.179.255
netname:        NOWIRES-PI
descr:          No Wires Ltd
country:        GB
org:            ORG-NWL1-RIPE
admin-c:        AT4098-RIPE
tech-c:         JC2953-RIPE
status:         ASSIGNED PI
mnt-by:         RIPE-NCC-HM-PI-MNT
mnt-by:         CRYSTAL-MNT
mnt-lower:      RIPE-NCC-HM-PI-MNT
mnt-routes:     CRYSTAL-MNT
mnt-domains:    CRYSTAL-MNT
changed:        hostmasterripe.net 20070413
source:         RIPE

Unless I'm mistaken this is new PI allocation done 2 days
ago. So
system worked as it should be removing it from the bogons
list.

> I'm just trying to get a complete (not constantly
changing) list of
> bogons.

The list changes and collection are done everyday on purpose
as 
completewhois system produced data not on IANA bogons which
change 
infrequently but more specific bogon data based on RIR
allocations,
i.e. it tries to catch and list portions of blocks that IANA
allocated
to RIR but RIR has not yet allocated/assigned to end-user or
ISP.

As RIRs make allocations basicly every business day,
completewhois
data is recollected to make sure it corresponds to most
current data.

---

If you have further questions it maybe better to send them
to me
privately and when I'll try to respond and check on the
differences
if you find something significant.

Its also in my plans to write "bogon 2.0" system
as I've learned quite
a bit about how things should and should not be done in the
last 2-3
years so 2nd time around should be much better (and I'm also
better
programmer as I switched from being operations network
engineer who
did some programming on side to operations monitoring &
other tools
programmer). When I get to this project (maybe over the
summer), this
will include user web interface to see exactly what changes
were done
each day and exactly why system added or removed particular
block(s).

-- 
William Leibzon
Elan Networks
williamelan.net

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 michael.dillonbt.com wrote:

> Why doesn't IANA operate a whois server?

In fact they do operate whois server at whois.iana.org.
However that has domain data for .arpa and .int and not IPv4
whois
data which IANA has historically provided using flat file
pointer
while having RIR maintain specific whois data even for /8
directly
listed in IANA file. Exactly because they do not operate ip
whois
in the flat file "based" on IANA data that for me
serves as "root":
  
http://www.completewhois.com/iana-ipv4-addresses.txt
for each IANA allocated block the listed whois server is
whois.arin.net

> Why don't they publish a more detailled explanation
field in each IANA
> allocation record so that they can explain the precise
status of each
> block?

This question as well as suggestion for IANA to operate
"root" ip
whois server for /8 bloks should probably be sent to
ianaiana.org.
(but its also possible that IANA people reading this list
will respond...)

> Why doesn't IANA and the RIRs collectively get off
their butts and
> actually make an "authoritative IP address
allocation directory" one of
> their goals?
> And why don't they do all this with some 21st century
technology?

A new system based on IRIS protocol (XML based using BEEP as
transport) 
will be in place in the future that will work better as a
comprehensive 
directory.

-- 
William Leibzon
Elan Networks
williamelan.net

Michael,

On Apr 15, 2007, at 2:58 PM, <michael.dillonbt.com>  
<michael.dillonbt.com> wrote:
> The world moved on around them but you
> still see things like IANA's non-parseable text file

The text file is parseable -- we have empirical evidence. 
Every time  
we change the format slightly, people yell at us.

> At the
> same time, IANA and the RIRs just keep doing the same
old thing as  
> their
> data and systems slowly rot away.

Not really.  I can't speak to the RIRs, but IANA is working
on both  
cleaning up the data in all our registries as well as coming
up with  
an XML-based alternative representation for those
registries.

> Why doesn't IANA operate a whois server?

We do.  The proper question to ask is why isn't our whois
server  
populated with address information instead of just domain
name  
information.  I don't know the reason historically. 
However, today,  
when the topic was recently raised, concerns were expressed
that IANA  
would be seen in competition with the RIRs and there are
those that  
believe IANA (ICANN) should have no "operational"
role whatsoever.   
With that said, IANA continues to look at adding top level
(i.e., /8s  
for IPv4) block allocation information to the IANA whois
server and  
this is something we're discussing with the RIRs -- I don't
think  
anybody is particularly happy with the current state of
affairs.

> Why don't they publish a more detailled explanation
field in each IANA
> allocation record so that they can explain the precise
status of each
> block?

What sort of additional information would be helpful?  As
mentioned  
above, we're preparing an XML-based alternative
representation of  
various IANA registries which would give us a lot more
flexibility  
than the current text based representation.  Feel free to
send mail  
privately as this might get a bit down in the weeds for
NANOG.

> Why doesn't IANA and the RIRs collectively get off
their butts and
> actually make an "authoritative IP address
allocation directory"  
> one of
> their goals?

Improving the IANA registries is one of our goals.  While I
can't  
speak to the RIRs, I suspect it is one of their goals as
well.

> And why don't they do all this with some 21st century
technology?

I was wondering when LDAP would show up in this
discussion... 

Rgds,
-drc

David Conrad wrote:
[..]
>> Why doesn't IANA operate a whois server?
> 
> We do.  The proper question to ask is why isn't our
whois server
> populated with address information instead of just
domain name
> information.  I don't know the reason historically. 
However, today,
> when the topic was recently raised, concerns were
expressed that IANA
> would be seen in competition with the RIRs and there
are those that
> believe IANA (ICANN) should have no
"operational" role whatsoever.  With
> that said, IANA continues to look at adding top level
(i.e., /8s for
> IPv4) block allocation information to the IANA whois
server and this is
> something we're discussing with the RIRs -- I don't
think anybody is
> particularly happy with the current state of affairs.

Competition? How can it be competition when you are at the
top of the
food chain. Unless I am misunderstanding something
completely that is
the place that IANA has.

IANA has all the address space. It loans chunks of this
address space to
the RIR's by delegating it to them. Then the RIR's delegate
this to
LIR's who delegate it to end-users.

As such, IANA having a whois server which delegates this
address space
down to the RIR's would be a great thing to have and also
totally
logical and in no way in 'competition' with the RIR's. I am
also quite
sure that none of the membership of those RIR's will
complain about this.

Do expect people to then, correctly, point their whois
client to
whois.iana.org for IP addresses, as then those clients can
follow the
refer: headers down to the RIR's where the real data is.

>> Why don't they publish a more detailled explanation
field in each IANA
>> allocation record so that they can explain the
precise status of each
>> block?
> 
> What sort of additional information would be helpful? 
As mentioned
> above, we're preparing an XML-based alternative
representation of
> various IANA registries which would give us a lot more
flexibility than
> the current text based representation.  Feel free to
send mail privately
> as this might get a bit down in the weeds for NANOG.

"Database dumps" similar to what the RIR's also
are providing.

eg like ftp://ftp.ripe.net/pub/stats

But for IANA that would only be delegation points, thus a
list of all
the blocks IANA has delegated to the RIR's.

Same for whois data (aka
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/dbase/split) so one can
simply fetch all those inet6num's in one go. Of course that
doesn't
apply to IANA as the RIR's have that data.


In short: please publish inetnum/inet6num delegations from
whois.iana.org to the RIR's using refer: headers in the
data.


On a similar subject, IANA is also a perfect place for an
IRR root.
Unfortunately only APNIC, RIPE seem to have a non-beta one.
ARIN's
rr.arin.net seems to be a bit underused.

Greets,
 Jeroen