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Thread: Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?




Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?
country flaguser name
United States
2007-10-21 22:25:45
> > Surely one ISP out there has to have investigated
ways that p2p could
> > co-exist with their network..
> 
> Some ideas from one small ISP.
> 
> First, fileshare networks drive the need for bandwidth,
and since an ISP 
> sells bandwidth that should be viewed as good for
business because you 
> aren't going to sell many 6mb dsl lines to home users
if they just want to 
> do email and browse.

One of the things to remember is that many customers are
simply looking
for Internet access, but couldn't tell a megabit from a
mackerel.

Given that they don't really have any true concept, many
users will look
at the numbers, just as they look at numbers for other
things they
purchase, and they'll assume that the one with better
numbers is a better
product.  It's kind of hard to test drive an Internet
connection, anyways.

This has often given cable here in the US a bit of an
advantage, and I've
noticed that the general practice of cable providers is to
try to maintain
a set of numbers that's more attractive than those you
typically land with
DSL.

[snip a bunch of stuff that sounds good in theory, may not
map in practice]

> If you expect them to pay for 6mb pipes, they better
see it run faster than 
> it does on a 1.5mb pipe or they are going to head to
your competition.

A small number of them, perhaps.

Here's an interesting issue.  I recently learned that the
local RR
affiliate has changed its service offerings.  They now offer
7M/512k resi
for $45/mo, or 14M/1M for $50/mo (or thereabouts, prices not
exact).

Now, does anybody really think that the additional capacity
that they're
offering for just a few bucks more is real, or are they just
playing the
numbers for advertising purposes?  I have no doubt that
you'll be able to
burst higher, but I'm a bit skeptical about continuous use.

Noticed about two months ago that AT&T started putting
kiosks for U-verse
at local malls and movie theatres.  Coincidence?

... JG
-- 
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me
one chance [and] then I
won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n
position on e-mail spam(CNN)
With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way
too many apples.

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? and Re: Comcast blocking p2p upload
country flaguser name
United States
2007-10-22 00:09:26
[note that this post also relates to the thread Re: Comcast
blocking p2p 
uploads]

While both discussions started out as operational, most of
the mail
traffic is things that are not very much related to
technology or
operations.  

To clarify, things like these are on-topic:

* Whether p2p protocols are "well-behaved", and
how can we help making 
them behave.

* Filtering "non-behaving" applications, whether
these are worms or p2p 
applications.

* Helping p2p authors write protocols that are topology-
and
congestion-aware

These are on-topic, but all arguments for and against have
already been
made. Unless you have something new and insightful to say,
please avoid
continuing conversations about these subjects:

* ISPs should[n't] have enough capacity to accomodate any
application, no 
matter how well or badly behaved
* ISPs should[n't] charge per byte
* ISPs should[n't] have bandwidth caps
* Legality of blocking and filtering

These are clearly off-topic:
* End-user comments about their particular MSO/ISP, pricing,
etc. 
* Morality of blocking and filtering

As a guideline, if you can expect a presentation at nanog
conference about
something, it belongs on the list. If you can't, it doesn't.
It is a clear
distinction. In addition, keep in mind that this is the
"network
operators" mailing list, *not* the end-user mailing
list.

Marty Hannigan (MLC member) already made a post on the
"Comcast blocking
p2p uploads"  asking to stick to the operational
content (vs, politics and
morality of blocking p2p application), but people still
continue to make
non-technical comments.

Accordingly, to increase signal/noise (as applied to network
operations)  
MLC (that's us, the team who moderate this mailing list)
won't hesitate to
warn posters who ignore the limits set by AUP and guidance
set up by MLC.

If you want to discuss this moderation request, please do so
on 
nanog-futures.

-alex [mlc chair]


Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?
country flaguser name
United States
2007-10-22 05:07:07

> One of the things to remember is that many customers
are simply looking
> for Internet access, but couldn't tell a megabit from a
mackerel.

That may have been true 5 years ago, it's not true today.
People learn.


> Here's an interesting issue.  I recently learned that
the local RR
> affiliate has changed its service offerings.  They now
offer 7M/512k resi
> for $45/mo, or 14M/1M for $50/mo (or thereabouts,
prices not exact).
>
> Now, does anybody really think that the additional
capacity that they're
> offering for just a few bucks more is real, or are they
just playing the
> numbers for advertising purposes?

Windstream offers 6m/384k for $29.95 and 6m/768k for $100,
does that answer 
your question? What is comcast's upspeed, is it this low or
is comcast's 
real problem that they offer 1m or more of upspeed for too
cheap a price? 
Hmmm.. perhaps it's not the customers who don't know a
megabit from a 
mackerel but instead perhaps it's comcast who thinks
customers are stupid 
and as a result they've ended up with the people who want
upspeed?

Geo.

George Roettger
Netlink Services 


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