Formfill

How can I use Linux and or KDE for a formfill application
like this
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/electionsVoter/a
bsenteeRequest.pdf ?

To clarify, I am not looking for an application like this
http://www
.cerefect.com/FormFill/shots.htm where one puts a
*printed* form
into the printer and the program appends the missing data.

I want to take the *electronic* form, append the variable
data by simple
field typing

1.  name

2. address

3.  city

etc or whatever those fields might be, so that when I hit
print, the program knows where 
to append those fields onto the *electronic* form before
printing the whole thing on 
*plain* paper..  The idea of a person having to hunt over an
electronic form to
know where to put data is not what my kind of software is
alll about; productivity.

Henry






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> How can I use Linux and or KDE for a formfill
application like this
> http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/electionsVoter/a
bsenteeRequest.pdf ?
> 
> To clarify, I am not looking for an application like
this
> http://www
.cerefect.com/FormFill/shots.htm where one puts a
*printed* form
> into the printer and the program appends the missing
data.
> 
> I want to take the *electronic* form, append the
variable data by simple
> field typing
> 
> 1.  name
> 
> 2. address
> 
> 3.  city
> 
> etc or whatever those fields might be, so that when I
hit print, the 
> program knows where to append those fields onto the
*electronic* form 
> before printing the whole thing on *plain* paper..  The
idea of a person 
> having to hunt over an electronic form to
> know where to put data is not what my kind of software
is alll about; 
> productivity.
> 
> Henry

To my knowledge the only way to fill out a PDF is if it is a
PDF form.
I don't have Acrobat on this machine so I don't know if the
form from 
the state is a fillable form or not.  Does the software from
cerefect 
actually fill out the form, or simply overlay the infomation
you input 
over the form at print time?

The way you want to append the variable data by "simple
field typing" 
simply doesn't exist in PDF.  There are ways to create an
interface 
on top of fdf or xfdf.  To date I've not seen an application
for Linux 
that makes this trivial.  One can create a web based
application with 
the pdftk and some perl/php/python (take your pick) glue and
output 
filled out PDFs.  It's not overly complicated, there is some
learning 
curve to overcome at first though.

Then again maybe I'm missing the point!

What is the question again?  How about links to Linux
related stuff 
and not M$ software.

Mike

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Henry Keultjes wrote:

> How can I use Linux and or KDE for a formfill
application like this
> http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/electionsVoter/a
bsenteeRequest.pdf ?
>
> To clarify, I am not looking for an application like
this
> http://www
.cerefect.com/FormFill/shots.htm where one puts a
*printed* 
> form
> into the printer and the program appends the missing
data.
>
> I want to take the *electronic* form, append the
variable data by simple
> field typing
>
> 1.  name
>
> 2. address
>
> 3.  city
>
> etc or whatever those fields might be, so that when I
hit print, the 
> program knows where to append those fields onto the
*electronic* form 
> before printing the whole thing on *plain* paper..  The
idea of a 
> person having to hunt over an electronic form to
> know where to put data is not what my kind of software
is alll about; 
> productivity.
>
> Henry 


Wat you're talking about is a Fillable Form PDF.
Adobe has done much in this direction.  Such PDFs can have
teir data 
stored in an external file.  Depending on how the PDF is
created the 
data can be in one of multiple formats.  THe format I like
the most is 
calle an XFDF - eXtensible Form Data File (or something like
that...)

When you create the XFDF (or FDF if you don't want/need the
data to be 
in XML format) you point it to the fillable PDF.  Viewing
the XFDF will 
call the form and load both into the Acrobat Viewer.

The same fillable form PDF can also be used to create the
XFDF data 
files.  So you could put the Form on a Website, have the
users download 
it or complete in on-line and then send the data anywhere
you desire.  
The big thing is that the form and the data are two (or
more) separate 
files.

We used this technology at Miami Systems with great success.
 Also, it's 
platform independant, so it doesn't matter whether it's on a
Windows, 
Mac, or Linux system.

Chuck



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I will go with those answers, that it can be done and, if
necessary, 
Mike could probably show me an application at Miami Systems.

The key is what Chuck mentioned, that the "master"
is in one file while 
the fill data is in another file so that there is a minimal
need for 
storing data because the master is stored once while the
fill-in can be 
stored many times.

Henry

Chuck Stickelman wrote:

> mike wrote:
>
>>> How can I use Linux and or KDE for a formfill
application like this
>>> http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/electionsVoter/a
bsenteeRequest.pdf ?
>>>
>>> To clarify, I am not looking for an application
like this
>>> http://www
.cerefect.com/FormFill/shots.htm where one puts a 
>>> *printed* form
>>> into the printer and the program appends the
missing data.
>>>
>>> I want to take the *electronic* form, append
the variable data by 
>>> simple
>>> field typing
>>>
>>> 1.  name
>>>
>>> 2. address
>>>
>>> 3.  city
>>>
>>> etc or whatever those fields might be, so that
when I hit print, the 
>>> program knows where to append those fields onto
the *electronic* 
>>> form before printing the whole thing on *plain*
paper..  The idea of 
>>> a person having to hunt over an electronic form
to
>>> know where to put data is not what my kind of
software is alll 
>>> about; productivity.
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>   
>>
>>
>> To my knowledge the only way to fill out a PDF is
if it is a PDF form.
>>  
>>
> Right.
>
>> I don't have Acrobat on this machine so I don't
know if the form from 
>> the state is a fillable form or not. 
>
> Not.
>
>> Does the software from cerefect actually fill out
the form, or simply 
>> overlay the infomation you input over the form at
print time?
>>
>>  
>>
> What I saw when I followed the link was just a vanilla
PDF.  Nothing 
> fancy.  Pretty much in the
print-it-out-and-fill-in-by-hand catagory.  
> (And this was while using XP...)
>
>> The way you want to append the variable data by
"simple field typing" 
>> simply doesn't exist in PDF.  There are ways to
create an interface 
>> on top of fdf or xfdf.  To date I've not seen an
application for 
>> Linux that makes this trivial.  One can create a
web based 
>> application with the pdftk and some perl/php/python
(take your pick) 
>> glue and output filled out PDFs.  It's not overly
complicated, there 
>> is some learning curve to overcome at first though.
>>
>>  
>>
> The form can be created such that it can save the
FDF/XFDF data, but 
> it has to be built with that capability.  Otherwise
Mike is right, 
> you'll need some glue code to build the FDF/XFDF data
files.  Mike has 
> doen quite a bit of work doing the stuff he mentioned
above, so I'll 
> defere to him on the specifics.
>
>> Then again maybe I'm missing the point!
>>
>> What is the question again?  How about links to
Linux related stuff 
>> and not M$ software.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>  
>>
> Chuck
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
----------------
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 -
Release Date: 1/13/2006
>  
>

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I will go with those answers, that it can be done and, if
necessary,
Mike could probably show me an application at Miami Systems.

The key is what Chuck mentioned, that the "master"
is in one file while
the fill data is in another file so that there is a minimal
need for
storing data because the master is stored once while the
fill-in can be
stored many times.

However, the software has to be Open Source so that there
are no licensing isssues. 
Isn't there an Open Source alternative to Acrobat?

Henry

Chuck Stickelman wrote:

> mike wrote:
>
>>> How can I use Linux and or KDE for a formfill
application like this
>>> http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/electionsVoter/a
bsenteeRequest.pdf ?
>>>
>>> To clarify, I am not looking for an application
like this
>>> http://www
.cerefect.com/FormFill/shots.htm where one puts a 
>>> *printed* form
>>> into the printer and the program appends the
missing data.
>>>
>>> I want to take the *electronic* form, append
the variable data by 
>>> simple
>>> field typing
>>>
>>> 1.  name
>>>
>>> 2. address
>>>
>>> 3.  city
>>>
>>> etc or whatever those fields might be, so that
when I hit print, the 
>>> program knows where to append those fields onto
the *electronic* 
>>> form before printing the whole thing on *plain*
paper..  The idea of 
>>> a person having to hunt over an electronic form
to
>>> know where to put data is not what my kind of
software is alll 
>>> about; productivity.
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>   
>>
>>
>> To my knowledge the only way to fill out a PDF is
if it is a PDF form.
>>  
>>
> Right.
>
>> I don't have Acrobat on this machine so I don't
know if the form from 
>> the state is a fillable form or not. 
>
> Not.
>
>> Does the software from cerefect actually fill out
the form, or simply 
>> overlay the infomation you input over the form at
print time?
>>
>>  
>>
> What I saw when I followed the link was just a vanilla
PDF.  Nothing 
> fancy.  Pretty much in the
print-it-out-and-fill-in-by-hand catagory.  
> (And this was while using XP...)
>
>> The way you want to append the variable data by
"simple field typing" 
>> simply doesn't exist in PDF.  There are ways to
create an interface 
>> on top of fdf or xfdf.  To date I've not seen an
application for 
>> Linux that makes this trivial.  One can create a
web based 
>> application with the pdftk and some perl/php/python
(take your pick) 
>> glue and output filled out PDFs.  It's not overly
complicated, there 
>> is some learning curve to overcome at first though.
>>
>>  
>>
> The form can be created such that it can save the
FDF/XFDF data, but 
> it has to be built with that capability.  Otherwise
Mike is right, 
> you'll need some glue code to build the FDF/XFDF data
files.  Mike has 
> doen quite a bit of work doing the stuff he mentioned
above, so I'll 
> defere to him on the specifics.
>
>> Then again maybe I'm missing the point!
>>
>> What is the question again?  How about links to
Linux related stuff 
>> and not M$ software.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>  
>>
> Chuck
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
----------------
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 -
Release Date: 1/13/2006
>  
>


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On Sat, Jan 14, 2006 at 08:04:59PM -0500, Henry Keultjes
wrote:
> I will go with those answers, that it can be done and,
if necessary,
> Mike could probably show me an application at Miami
Systems.
> 
> The key is what Chuck mentioned, that the
"master" is in one file while
> the fill data is in another file so that there is a
minimal need for
> storing data because the master is stored once while
the fill-in can be
> stored many times.
> 
> However, the software has to be Open Source so that
there are no licensing 
> isssues. Isn't there an Open Source alternative to
Acrobat?
> 
Certainly I can show you what I've done, it ain't all that
though.

Look into these...

www.pdfhacks.com  Then go buy the book!
search google for pdftk (Don't recall the actual website,
probably
linked from above though as he wrote the book Sid Stewart)
look also for iText.  pdftk uses the library(s) from iText.

The iText website can link you to more PDF information than
most 
humans can consume and then some more.

Mike

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Henry Keultjes wrote:

> I will go with those answers, that it can be done and,
if necessary,
> Mike could probably show me an application at Miami
Systems.
>
> The key is what Chuck mentioned, that the
"master" is in one file while
> the fill data is in another file so that there is a
minimal need for
> storing data because the master is stored once while
the fill-in can be
> stored many times.
>
> However, the software has to be Open Source so that
there are no 
> licensing isssues. Isn't there an Open Source
alternative to Acrobat?
>
> Henry

There are many Open-Source PDF viewers.  However, I'm not
sure that 
there are any that support FDF/XFDF data files...  Though
anyone can 
download and use Acrobat Reader... while that's not Open
Source it's 
also not much of a problem... (How many applications
distribute Acrobat 
Reader with their products...!?)

Chuck



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On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 05:10:30PM -0500, Chuck Stickelman
wrote:
> Henry Keultjes wrote:
> 
> >I will go with those answers, that it can be done
and, if necessary,
> >Mike could probably show me an application at Miami
Systems.
> >
> >The key is what Chuck mentioned, that the
"master" is in one file while
> >the fill data is in another file so that there is a
minimal need for
> >storing data because the master is stored once
while the fill-in can be
> >stored many times.
> >
> >However, the software has to be Open Source so that
there are no 
> >licensing isssues. Isn't there an Open Source
alternative to Acrobat?
> >
> >Henry
> 
> There are many Open-Source PDF viewers.  However, I'm
not sure that 
> there are any that support FDF/XFDF data files... 
Though anyone can 
> download and use Acrobat Reader... while that's not
Open Source it's 
> also not much of a problem... (How many applications
distribute Acrobat 
> Reader with their products...!?)
> 

I don't know of any Open source PDF viewers that support PDF
forms in
any way.  I belive xpdf may have limited javascript support,
this isn't
what is needed though.  To this day if you want to use PDF
forms your
locked into Adobe.  Period.  Atleast on the *nix side. 
There are some
shareware tools on M$ that can extend what little you can do
in Acrobat
reader.  Such as actually save out the data that you put
into a form.

Some days I think that Adobe is either following M$ or they
are in bed
with them.  Of course it could be that there simply isn't
enough demand
for an OSS solution to PDF forms.  The implimentation
details in all
their gory detail are available from Adobe.  1100 or 1200
pages plus for
the 1.5 specs.  That doesn't even cover all the forms stuff
either, 
in in another few hunderd pages of specs.

As of Acrobat 7 there is a new specification and once again
the forms
submission mechanism has changed.  I've yet to read a
favorable 
response to the new forms stuff.

It should be noted that you can create PDF forms with
Scribus.  I've
done some with it.  The results haven't been that great for
me.  Keep
in mind though that I'm far for any kind of graphic artist
type. 
Also even though I've pulled off a few things with PDF forms
I still
consider myself at beginner level, considering the weight of
the PDF
specs.

Mike

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Some companies are better than others at actually making
money. Adobe 
stock is up about 300% since I bought it a few years ago...

mike wrote:

>Some days I think that Adobe is either following M$ or
they are in bed
>with them.  Of course it could be that there simply
isn't enough demand
>for an OSS solution to PDF forms.  
>


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On Mon, Jan 16, 2006 at 06:42:23AM -0500, larry wrote:
> Some companies are better than others at actually
making money. Adobe 
> stock is up about 300% since I bought it a few years
ago...
> 
> mike wrote:
> 
> >Some days I think that Adobe is either following M$
or they are in bed
> >with them.  Of course it could be that there simply
isn't enough demand
> >for an OSS solution to PDF forms.  
> >
> 
I really shouldn't have started that...

Certainly Adobe makes some decent products.  Obviously they
are making
money.  My point was more frustration aimed at how they
typically 
release Reader for *nix like a year or more later than the
M$ version.
The features often aren't the same, or functionality is
different.  This
isn't always obvious to the end user.  Somebody trying to
get PDFs to
do things in a consistant manner across multiple platforms
knows the
issues.

Probably my biggest frustration is the lack of many of the
PDF features in a OSS solution.  As I don't have the skill
set to 
write something I can't really gripe to loud.  Given that I
don't 
really have the time to consume all of the PDF specification
doesn't
help much either.  This is far from a trivial application.

Anyway moving on.

Mike

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