Hal,
Hal Vaughan wrote:
> On Thursday 10 May 2007 04:24, Kay Ramme - Sun Germany
- Hamburg wrote:
>> Hal,
>>
>> Hal Vaughan wrote:
>>> On Thursday 10 May 2007 03:12, Kay Ramme - Sun
Germany - Hamburg
> wrote:
>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>
>>>> if you are stumbling over deadlocks in OOo,
it would be nice if
>>>> you can submit issues for that, ideally
with some tests to
>>>> reproduce it and some stacktraces. If I
remember correctly, there
>>>> is already a tool coming with OOo, which
allows to kill it while
>>>> sending stacks at the same time.
>>> Unfortunately, it's not happening on my systems
anymore, it's
>>> happening on my customer's systems and that's
not a situation where
>>> I can go through that. This doesn't happen
often, but it was
>>> starting to happen to one client on Windows XP
and she had to
>>> reboot every time she wanted to run my app. I
have to set up a
>>> kill method first, then some VERY major
programming to handle tasks
>>> that, at this time, take me days to do.
>> If you see a way to do so, please submit issues.
Feel free to assign
>> these to me first (kr openoffice.org), I am going
to dispatch these
>> to the rights owners than. By the way, using
multiple clients at the
>> same time likely leads to deadlocks / crashes,
because of issues in
>> OOos implementation relative to multi-threading.
>
> I've wondered if it might be a multiple clients issue
(and here it makes
> it hard to keep track, since we're talking about
server/clients and my
> business clients, so I'll use "client apps"
to refer to the non-human
> one). Basically this is not a program people will keep
on in the
> background. It runs, does it's thing, then exits.
When it's done, as
> I said, it checks a flag to see if OOo was running when
it started. If
> not, it kills OOo through the API. If OOo was running,
it cleans up
> and exits properly. Most of the time there's never
been a problem, but
> it started showing up with one user after a while.
You may want to use multiple instances of OOo running, one
for every
client (you need to provide directories for the user data
for every
instance, e.g.
"-env:UserInstallation=<path>"). So,
obviously this is
not optimal memory wise 
>
> I've wondered if, for some reason, the old instance of
the client app
> was not releasing, but the log files show it was.
You mean, it terminated ?!
>
> I think I'm going to handle this by writing a routine
that will kill
> OOo. When my app first starts, it'll try an immediate
connection with
> OOo. If it doesn't get it, it'll run OOo and wait.
If, after a
> certain length of time, it doesn't get a connection,
then it'll kill
> any instance of OOo and try again. At the end, it'll
release it and if
> it was supposed to end OOo, it'll also terminate it
with Taskkill.
SAL implements a little executable called
"kill.exe", which is somewhat
similar to the Unix kill command, but is usable on Windows
(http://porting.openoffice.org/source
/browse/porting/sal/systools/win32/kill/).
Call "kill -null <pid>" to terminate the
hanging process, while ensuring
that the crash reporter jumps up.
>
> The only situation that doesn't cover is checking to
see if everything
> is okay if OOo was already running and is left running
at the end. I
> could try getting another connection and releasing it
to be sure, but
> that gets redundant.
OOo is currently missing a precise process lifecycle wrt. to
Uno
clients. Please see
http://udk.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=63473
for details.
>
> I appreciate your offer and will make sure, in the
future, that I do
> assign any bugs I report to you directly. I don't
think you'll see any
> for a while, since the programming I need to do limits
my time so much
> that, for now, the only use of OOo is generally for the
app I'm working
> with, which means I'm essentially doing only a few
limited things over
> and over. When I have time to get back to writing
screenplays, I'll be
> developing a number of specialized macros and working
with margin
> changing and other things that I'll be using in ways
most people either
> don't use as often as I need to do or don't use in the
way I do. When
> I'm doing that, I'll certainly be watching for bugs.
OK
>
>>> On another note, I have tried to report a
couple issues in the
>>> past. One was in Writer and it was closed
because it could not be
>>> reproduced for presentations. The other was a
serious issue about
>>> importing documents. In that one I was totally
blown off and I
>>> felt some of the comments bordered on rude.
>> I am sorry for that. Rude comments etc. are
certainly _not_
>> acceptable at all. If you point to me to the
issues, I take a look.
>
> I'd have to search for them. One, the issue I had in
Writer, seems to
> be fixed now, in spite of the weak troubleshooting and
the other was
> taken care of with the Word Perfect import margin,
which came along a
> few years later.
OK
>
>>> I'm really loathe to turn in bug reports at
this point. I've
>>> helped with the community before while working
out macros and macro
>>> programming. I've been working in Perl for 6
years and in Java for
>>> about 4 years, but I've never learned C and it
seems C and C++
>>> programmers seem to have completely different
attitudes and a
>>> language all their own. Unfortunately, and
I've come across this
>>> in several FOSS projects, part of that language
seems to include
>>> being condescending to those who aren't in
"their" world.
>> Again, I am sorry for that. My understanding is,
that we are a
>> community, helping each other to reach the bigger
goal. This includes
>> expressing things in an understandable language and
showing respect
>> for each other.
>
> Yes, I agree. That's why I was working with people on
macros and issues
> around that. Some of my questions even ended up in
Andrew's book on
> macros in OOo. The people there were quite helpful and
it was a good
> community, so I was glad to work with them and wanted
to help. On the
> other hand, when a programmer got snotty with me, it
was years before I
> even considered filing any kind of issue again. I've
dealt with that
> attitude before and, as a former special ed teacher, I
found it quite
> disgusting. My job was to work with people that didn't
understand in
> the same way as others and I had to show much more
tolerance than most
> people ever do. I've dealt with a few other situations
where
> developers were almost hostile toward those they
considered "end users"
> because the users did not have the same technical
skills the
> programmers did. It's totally inappropriate and it had
happened with
> me in a few other FOSS projects, so I just gave up on
filing bug
> reports. If developers want help but aren't willing to
treat those who
> try to help like humans, then I'm just not going to
take the risk.
Understood. My believe is, that there are no end users
respectively
developers, everybody has always more than one role, e.g.
being a user
of a browser while developing a word processor or some web
stuff (this
obviously does not need to be computer related only  . So I
think,
that everybody should be able to understand the position of
others
relative to ones own. Moving along from being a novice e.g.
to becoming
a wizard is matter of many small steps in learning etc. Any
(artificial)
barrier between any pair of those steps hinder people to
learn and to
improve their abilities. This is also one of the reasons I
am completely
against something as "developer" documentation vs.
"end user"
documentation.
>
>>> As I said, I've helped in other areas and when
I get back to the
>>> point where I'm writing again, instead of
programming, I'm sure
>>> I'll have a lot to contribute to in OOo. It's
been a big help to
>>> me and I want to give back more than what I
have, but I've just
>>> found reporting issues to be a negative
experience. I don't know
>>> if the intent of some of those programmers was
to squelch me so
>>> they could close the bugs, but the effect is
that I've learned it's
>>> not worth the hassle to report issues.
>> There sure are cases, where opinions very, mostly I
would trust the
>> aspect matter expert, so certainly she or he may
fail.
>
> My sense was that in at least one case, the intent was
to just get me to
> shut up so the issue could be closed and forgotten.
This is certainly not acceptable. Please put me on CC: if
you ever
stumble over this again.
>
> Hal
Best regards
Kay
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