Repeated Sections in XForm?

Hello.

As mentioned in
http://www.idealliance.org/proceeding
s/xml04/papers/110/xml2004_ideadb.html
repeated sections are not supported by OpenOffice by that
time (2004).
Now 3 years has passed, can someone tell me if this feature
is currently
available in latest OOO?

repeated section is important for practical use of XForm
because
otherwise order list (order a number of items) wouldn't be
possible.

Also: is there a way to deliver form not only in OpenOffice
format, but
in Acrobat PDF format where end users can fill XForms in
Adobe Reader
and gets an XML file that they can send back?

Thanks!

-- 
Real Softservice

Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang

Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
Mobile: 135 9950 2413
http://www.realss.com


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Hi,

There is a service from Orbeon IIRC.

As far as repeat, no. I have some examples generating UBL
documents
(Invoices) outside of OO with the user determining at
generation time
how many lines are required. This however ran into another
problem
with the OO implementation which cannot handle the large
number of
bindings such a format as UBL requires for the editing of a
large
document. I mention UBL because your reference to Order made
me think
this might be the target (or a similar financial documents
format).
However I suppose that if you can make good arguments as to
why this
should be focussed on more than other development areas it
could
become an action item for someone /based on conversations.

Cheers,
Bryan Rasmussen

On 10/4/07, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwurealss.com> wrote:
> Hello.
>
> As mentioned in
> http://www.idealliance.org/proceeding
s/xml04/papers/110/xml2004_ideadb.html
> repeated sections are not supported by OpenOffice by
that time (2004).
> Now 3 years has passed, can someone tell me if this
feature is currently
> available in latest OOO?
>
> repeated section is important for practical use of
XForm because
> otherwise order list (order a number of items) wouldn't
be possible.
>
> Also: is there a way to deliver form not only in
OpenOffice format, but
> in Acrobat PDF format where end users can fill XForms
in Adobe Reader
> and gets an XML file that they can send back?
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Real Softservice
>
> Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
> Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang
>
> Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
> Mobile: 135 9950 2413
> http://www.realss.com
>
>
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-helpxml.openoffice.org
>
>

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Am Donnerstag, den 04.10.2007, 17:00 +0200 schrieb bryan
rasmussen:

> As far as repeat, no. I have some examples generating
UBL documents
> (Invoices) outside of OO with the user determining at
generation time
> how many lines are required. This however ran into
another problem
> with the OO implementation which cannot handle the
large number of
> bindings such a format as UBL requires for the editing
of a large
> document. I mention UBL because your reference to Order
made me think
> this might be the target (or a similar financial
documents format).
> However I suppose that if you can make good arguments
as to why this
> should be focussed on more than other development areas
it could
> become an action item for someone /based on
conversations.

Mostly anything modelled as an 1:n relation in a database is
a potential
candidate for repeated sections.

invoice -> item list
item production -> parts list
contacts -> e-mail, telephone
recipies -> ingredients
room plan -> occupation calendar
customer -> orders
orders -> ordered items
...

I could add to this list all day long. Okay, some cases may
be solvable
with some workarounds and others may never be used in a form
made up as
XForms-instance, but the rest is enough for requesting this
feature.

I stepped back from using OO.o for XForms since I know this
essentially
important feature is missing.

Marc


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I too would be very interested to hear if there has been any
progress on the
XForms implementation in ODF in OOo-based products. I had
some input
at the conceptual stage and later my employers in local
government got
involved in reviewing improvements of the original
implementation with Sun
and Open Source Academy. Things had to be dropped before
seeing it all
come to full fruition so I'd be very pleased to hear if it
has all been taken
forward since then. Lars Oppermann was working on this and
did a great
job for as far as we could follow. I would suggest following
his blog at
http://blogs.sun.com/lars/
 (hope Lars doesn't mind me saying that).

Following on from Bryan's mention of UBL, I wrote a UBL 1.0
Invoice XForm
in ODF which G. Ken Holman has included in a nice tutorial
on how to use
filters to output XML from Calc. It is interesting that an
XML Form (XForm)
in ODF does not require that you actually output the
resulting XML using the
HTTP facility - you can just save (and send) the entire
ODF/XForm, or, as Ken
describes, use Save As to output it with a filter. Has
anyone tried
anything with
the filters in ernest at all? Looks like I'll be asked to do
so myself
soon so I'd
be pleased to hear if that works nicely or not.

Ken's tutorial is at
http://www.cranesoftwrights.com/resources/index.htm#
odf-xslt

Repeat seems to be a difficult thing to implement in any
XML-based
application let alone in OOo - you have to watch all sorts
of things like
how a select1 bound to an element or attribute within the
repeatable
bound element works. It took a while to see it implemented
nicely in
Firefox. It is actually very challenging for newbies in
XForms with XHTML
to use the bindings and so on of the XForms repeat so all
the more
tricky when the XForms host language is ODF. I'm not sure
XForms has it
all working optimally yet.

Is it a major factor that the ODF standard includes the
architecture for the
hosting of the XForms within the ODF? Does that
specification have yet
to cater for repeats?

Does ODF itself allow repeating of rows, even without the
major added
complexity of the binding to the XForms model? I assume that
might
first have to be made completely user friendly before
thinking how to add
XForms repeats.

Regards

-- 
Stephen Green

Partner
SystML, http://www.systml.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 117 9541606

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+22:
37 .. and voice

On 04/10/2007, Marc Santhoff <M.Santhofft-online.de> wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, den 04.10.2007, 17:00 +0200 schrieb
bryan rasmussen:
>
> > As far as repeat, no. I have some examples
generating UBL documents
> > (Invoices) outside of OO with the user determining
at generation time
> > how many lines are required. This however ran into
another problem
> > with the OO implementation which cannot handle the
large number of
> > bindings such a format as UBL requires for the
editing of a large
> > document. I mention UBL because your reference to
Order made me think
> > this might be the target (or a similar financial
documents format).
> > However I suppose that if you can make good
arguments as to why this
> > should be focussed on more than other development
areas it could
> > become an action item for someone /based on
conversations.
>
> Mostly anything modelled as an 1:n relation in a
database is a potential
> candidate for repeated sections.
>
> invoice -> item list
> item production -> parts list
> contacts -> e-mail, telephone
> recipies -> ingredients
> room plan -> occupation calendar
> customer -> orders
> orders -> ordered items
> ...
>
> I could add to this list all day long. Okay, some cases
may be solvable
> with some workarounds and others may never be used in a
form made up as
> XForms-instance, but the rest is enough for requesting
this feature.
>
> I stepped back from using OO.o for XForms since I know
this essentially
> important feature is missing.
>
> Marc
>
>
>
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>


-- 
Stephen Green

Partner
SystML, http://www.systml.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 117 9541606

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+22:
37 .. and voice

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bryan rasmussen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There is a service from Orbeon IIRC.
>
> As far as repeat, no. I have some examples generating
UBL documents
> (Invoices) outside of OO with the user determining at
generation time
> how many lines are required. This however ran into
another problem
> with the OO implementation which cannot handle the
large number of
> bindings such a format as UBL requires for the editing
of a large
> document. I mention UBL because your reference to Order
made me think
> this might be the target (or a similar financial
documents format).
> However I suppose that if you can make good arguments
as to why this
> should be focussed on more than other development areas
it could
> become an action item for someone /based on
conversations.
>   
Dear Bryan Rasmussen

I am not sure if I know what you mean as I lack background
information
of OOO, so I am here to only speak as a user opinion and
please forgive
my ignorance for the reference information provided (because
I don't
understand them right now). I will try get a whole picture
soon.

We are actually not working on orders but on questionnaires,
these
questionnaires cover information like how many member you
have in your
family and each one's gender, relationship and income. We
have many such
questionnaires (e.g. what business do you do, and list each
of them and
their income). I work for the project contracted by
government and this
feature is required if OpenOffice is viable choice
(alternative would be
InfoPath). I think maybe if I can find out a workaround
(e.g. using
macros and other techniques) but then it has to be done in a
way that
questionnaire designer (low level trained) can easily use
these macros...

It's enough if repeated section only is usable in table,
e.g. user hit
"+" or press "tab" at end of a row and
gets an extra row with all
controls bind-ed already.

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Zhang Weiwu wrote:
> bryan rasmussen wrote:
>   
>> As far as repeat, no. I have some examples
generating UBL documents
>> (Invoices) outside of OO with the user determining
at generation time
>> how many lines are required. This however ran into
another problem
>> with the OO implementation which cannot handle the
large number of
>> bindings such a format as UBL requires for the
editing of a large
>> document. 
As of number of binding limitation, how is it? As for the
project I am
working on, we commonly have XForm that have 300 values in
it (would
reflect 300 bindings).
I would think as an extreme case a form we have may reach
1000 bindings
in the future. How is your experience in regarding to
binding limitation?

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Hi

How about just using a Calc spreadsheet with a filter so
that you can
use 'Save As' to convert your spreadsheet into the output
you want?

I've not tried this with a spreadsheet but intend to do so
soon (my
employers have already standardized on Star Office). I hope
it is
easy enough (we have XSLT skills). Our intended output is
flat
file (fixed width, ideally) but the same should apply as for
XML.

Using the spreadsheet, I'm thinking, will give the option of
the
repeated rows where needed. I guess it means mapping from
the
ODF spreadsheet format to the desired output.

Complex bindings, by the way, seem to be difficult to handle
by
the alternative office technologies too in my experience.

Best regards

-- 
Stephen Green

Partner
SystML, http://www.systml.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 117 9541606

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+22:
37 .. and voice


On 04/10/2007, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwurealss.com> wrote:
> bryan rasmussen wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > There is a service from Orbeon IIRC.
> >
> > As far as repeat, no. I have some examples
generating UBL documents
> > (Invoices) outside of OO with the user determining
at generation time
> > how many lines are required. This however ran into
another problem
> > with the OO implementation which cannot handle the
large number of
> > bindings such a format as UBL requires for the
editing of a large
> > document. I mention UBL because your reference to
Order made me think
> > this might be the target (or a similar financial
documents format).
> > However I suppose that if you can make good
arguments as to why this
> > should be focussed on more than other development
areas it could
> > become an action item for someone /based on
conversations.
> >
> Dear Bryan Rasmussen
>
> I am not sure if I know what you mean as I lack
background information
> of OOO, so I am here to only speak as a user opinion
and please forgive
> my ignorance for the reference information provided
(because I don't
> understand them right now). I will try get a whole
picture soon.
>
> We are actually not working on orders but on
questionnaires, these
> questionnaires cover information like how many member
you have in your
> family and each one's gender, relationship and income.
We have many such
> questionnaires (e.g. what business do you do, and list
each of them and
> their income). I work for the project contracted by
government and this
> feature is required if OpenOffice is viable choice
(alternative would be
> InfoPath). I think maybe if I can find out a workaround
(e.g. using
> macros and other techniques) but then it has to be done
in a way that
> questionnaire designer (low level trained) can easily
use these macros...
>
> It's enough if repeated section only is usable in
table, e.g. user hit
> "+" or press "tab" at end of a row
and gets an extra row with all
> controls bind-ed already.
>
>
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>
>

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Hi,

this is a nice idea - I also wanted something like repeating
XML 
"database rows" in XForms in OOo. However, my rows
can get pretty 
complex, and can contain a lot of optional fields that can
contain other 
optional fields etc. Lots of recursive structures.

 From the conceptual point of view, this kind of XML should
be available 
via database component in OOo, and editable through forms in
the 
database. Yet we lack a standardized XML JDBC driver for
direct editing, 
I'm afraid. And here goes my question: maybe we could export
to XML 
using XSLT? Is that possible?

Best regards,
Marcin

Stephen Green pisze:
> Hi
> 
> How about just using a Calc spreadsheet with a filter
so that you can
> use 'Save As' to convert your spreadsheet into the
output you want?
> 
> I've not tried this with a spreadsheet but intend to do
so soon (my
> employers have already standardized on Star Office). I
hope it is
> easy enough (we have XSLT skills). Our intended output
is flat
> file (fixed width, ideally) but the same should apply
as for XML.
> 
> Using the spreadsheet, I'm thinking, will give the
option of the
> repeated rows where needed. I guess it means mapping
from the
> ODF spreadsheet format to the desired output.
> 
> Complex bindings, by the way, seem to be difficult to
handle by
> the alternative office technologies too in my
experience.
> 
> Best regards
> 

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Stephen Green wrote:
> Hi
>
> How about just using a Calc spreadsheet with a filter
so that you can
> use 'Save As' to convert your spreadsheet into the
output you want?
>
> I've not tried this with a spreadsheet but intend to do
so soon (my
> employers have already standardized on Star Office). I
hope it is
> easy enough (we have XSLT skills). Our intended output
is flat
> file (fixed width, ideally) but the same should apply
as for XML.
>
> Using the spreadsheet, I'm thinking, will give the
option of the
> repeated rows where needed. I guess it means mapping
from the
> ODF spreadsheet format to the desired output.
>
> Complex bindings, by the way, seem to be difficult to
handle by
> the alternative office technologies too in my
experience.
>   
Thanks for suggestion!

It is simply more work. Actually what I am working on is to
search for
replacement of existing workflow using Microsoft Excel. The
server that
process these questionnaire (more than 300,000 copies of
Excel sheets)
is XML based, if converting from spreadsheet to XML, we are
not getting
better then existing Excel sheets slution. Further these
sheets have
paper version, we can probably print XForm OOO documents on
paper for
their use, but would not be so easy in OOCalc.

-- 
Real Softservice

Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang

Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
Mobile: 135 9950 2413
http://www.realss.com

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I would think that 1000 bindings is too much, by too much I
mean that
there would most probably be a noticeable lag between typing
text on
the keyboard and its appearance in the input field on the
form. IIRC
an order form with ten lines in UBL produced (after all
unnecessary
bindings had been dropped) somewhere in the neighborhood of
2000
bindings and keys entered had a lag time of some seconds per
key. So
that with my typing speed entering my name in a field meant
I was done
typing and sitting around for what must have been ten
seconds while
the field finished getting filled in (I timed it and wrote
it down
somewhere but don't want to go look now).This could have
been
optimized perhaps, but probably not that much.

300 though I think would be reasonable.

Cheers,
Bryan Rasmussen

On 10/4/07, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwurealss.com> wrote:
> Zhang Weiwu wrote:
> > bryan rasmussen wrote:
> >
> >> As far as repeat, no. I have some examples
generating UBL documents
> >> (Invoices) outside of OO with the user
determining at generation time
> >> how many lines are required. This however ran
into another problem
> >> with the OO implementation which cannot handle
the large number of
> >> bindings such a format as UBL requires for the
editing of a large
> >> document.
> As of number of binding limitation, how is it? As for
the project I am
> working on, we commonly have XForm that have 300 values
in it (would
> reflect 300 bindings).
> I would think as an extreme case a form we have may
reach 1000 bindings
> in the future. How is your experience in regarding to
binding limitation?
>
>
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>

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