Re: MacOSX PPC AQUA,X11 INTEL X11 version of OpenOffice.org SRC680_m221 have been uploaded

Pavel Janík a écrit :
> I do not respect some of your decisions

when important, I always try to not decide myself, but let
the Mac Team 
decides : there is always somebody with a good idea.

I'm here to give some directions, some visions of the MAc OS
X port 
future. Not decide for everything.

Please, read again the logs of the IRC meetings.


> you as a person because I do not know you. I can only
judge you  from 
> your online communication and yes, sometimes your
communication  style 
> is really bad (as well as mine is, but the difference
is that I  know it 
> .

I'm not alone to complain.


> This is one of the cases. I simply have the feeling
that you want  
> something, but you are not able to tell it directly...

Sorry, but you are spending your time.

The most important for me is the future of the Mac port, not
who/how 
provide builds.

What is important is really free OpenOffice.org code. vcl
understanding 
is a good beginning, but we still have undocumented code,
and Mac port 
is a mess from that point of view.

Not everything is wrong though : vcl understanding helps
other ports to 
progress and demonstrated deep code changes were necessary
(as example, 
read last Kay Ramme blog entry).

This is even extremely positive.

What is important : make things change, make Mac port a
major version, 
show something else than Windows exists, show other way of
software 
exists, and create a strong Mac community.

A noisy community : doing noise, and hacks, because
creativity is 
inside. Creativity is not in "russian
administration".


What I have in mind is find a way to fund seriously the
expenses of 
regular and /or very good developpers). I didn't say pay
them, just 
provide the minimal, to respect them.

Here is a part of what I have in mind, but I have a lot of
other ideas 
I'm workiong on currently.


To answer you more completely, I don't fear to say what I
think, and 
what I'd like to do.


> Yes. You or someone else could fix it faster than it
got fixed in  
> unomacli64.

Please read again : I used the word integrated. And the
issue was fixed 
before Maho started his build, and the fix could have been
used.

> And the only stupid thing is to argue about this :-(

This is your statement.

>> We are not Russian administration : OpenOffice.org
is supposed to  be 
>> a free software, with some compromises when
something is wrong,  and 
>> quick fixes when needed.
> 
> 
> Does the "quick fix" (I call it hack!) break
something else? Or some  
> other platform?


This is not a hack. Extract the cws and apply it to m221 is
correct, 
mainly when the cws is necessary to make the build work !


>> As Mac OS X Lead, I'd like to see a project able to
provide working  
>> builds first.
> 
> 
>  So why
haven't you fixed the problem before?

Again : the problem was fixed, but not integrated, and I
don't see any 
difference -excepted theorical- between issues fixed in a
cws waiting 
for integration, and the same cws already integrated.

> I as a project member would like to see the current
status as is.  
> Without hacks.

This is not hacks.

> I as a member of QA project would like to see the
current status as  is. 
> Without hacks, so I know what I test.


Currently, you cannot test anything, because it doesn't
start at all.

So *why* provide such builds ?


> I as a l10n co-lead want Mac port sub-project to build
for all  possible 
> locales so our members could see the current status and
 could help in 
> their language.

Of course I agree to provide all possible locales. but when
disk space 
is important, something more close to the reality is the
compromise.

Instead of discuss about different point of views, could we
have serious 
figures about what is really downloaded ? I'm sure this will
help more 
to decide a more "reallistic" number of locales.





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>> Yes. You or someone else could fix it faster than
it got fixed in   
>> unomacli64.
>
> Please read again : I used the word integrated. And the
issue was  
> fixed before Maho started his build, and the fix could
have been used.

No, because the purpose of these builds is to show the
current not  
future status. This is where we differ.

>> Does the "quick fix" (I call it hack!)
break something else? Or  
>> some  other platform?
>
> This is not a hack. Extract the cws and apply it to
m221 is  
> correct, mainly when the cws is necessary to make the
build work !

If you are providing milestone builds, you can't do that by 

definition. And we agreed on this on Mac port IRC meeting -
see the  
log here: http://wiki
.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ 
Log_Mac_Meeting_18_July_2007

> Instead of discuss about different point of views,
could we have  
> serious figures about what is really downloaded ? I'm
sure this  
> will help more to decide a more "reallistic"
number of locales.

This is exactly why we often disagree. The flow of your
ideas is  
incompatible with mine  I think
that the download statistics are  
orthogonal (completely independent) on the number of locales
we  
should provide. How do you judge if we will provide e.g. vi
locale  
based on the data in the statistics?
-- 
Pavel Janík


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Hi Eric, *,

On 7/23/07, eric.bachard <eric.bachardfree.fr> wrote:
> Pavel Janík a écrit :
> > I do not respect some of your decisions
>
> I'm here to give some directions, some visions of the
MAc OS X port
> future. Not decide for everything.

Sure, but you push your ideas (and that is fine) - and your
opinion as
lead of the project of course is important (that is fine as
well).

> Please, read again the logs of the IRC meetings.

You don't get what Pavel is talking about. It is not about
IRC meetings
or who makes decisions. It is mainly about communication,
about how you
tell things, about how you understand/interpret things that
other people write.

I'm all on Pavel's side here: You have a "slim
skin", you take things personally
very, very fast, even when clearly marked as joke or as
sarcasm, you still
insist that it was a personal attack.

And you have a big problem on focusing on one single topic.
You seem to
always throw everything into one pot, instead of focusing on
the one single
topic that is being discussed. Here again. You start about
documenting code
and stuff, but this is all distracting from the topic here.

> [many irrelevant (for this discussion) stuff snipped]
> > Yes. You or someone else could fix it faster than
it got fixed in
> > unomacli64.
>
> Please read again : I used the word integrated. And the
issue was fixed
> before Maho started his build, and the fix could have
been used.

And you should read again what Pavel's main point about this
whole thing
is:
He (Pavel)  - and I agree here - wants clean builds. Either
from a Master or
from a cws. No mixtures from different cws, no additional
patches. So even
if a patch is already integrated, it still would be an
additional patch that
would result in a dirty build. That's bad for one (Maho) who
provides regular
snapshot builds. Maho should not care about additional
patches. Only build
breakers matter (obviously, or the build has to be skipped
completely).

While I agree with you (Eric), that is is not *necessary* to
provide the full
set of localisations, I would never request that Maho should
not provide them.
I'm thankful that he provides them.

> > And the only stupid thing is to argue about this
:-(
>
> This is your statement.

No, he's not alone with this.

> [...]
> This is not a hack. Extract the cws and apply it to
m221 is correct,

No, not for the regular builds that Maho provides. They
should be as pristine
as possible. This is what Pavel stresses all the time (and
as I
mentioned I agree
with him on that topic) - and unfortunately what you either
don't understand
or simply ignore/don't acknowledge.

> mainly when the cws is necessary to make the build work
!

That doesn't matter in that case. This is not a build that
is advertised to the
public, this is not a server that is advertised to the
public/end user - so
that doesn't matter at all. The development snapshots are
"use at your own
risk" - and when it breaks, of course you should be
thankful about the feedback.

In that case you can always point the user to the official
snapshots or to the
cws, that it is already fixed in cvs.

> [...]
> Of course I agree to provide all possible locales. but
when disk space
> is important, something more close to the reality is
the compromise.

So if Maho is out of diskspace, he will either reduce the
number of locales
or ask somebody else to host parts of the builds. It is not
your job to tell
Maho not to provide these builds. Again, I'm thankful that
he provides those
builds, although I personally don't have a use for many of
them.

> Instead of discuss about different point of views,
could we have serious
> figures about what is really downloaded ? I'm sure this
will help more
> to decide a more "reallistic" number of
locales.

Again: Why do you care? It is Maho's/Good-Day's
infrastructure - it is taking up
disk-space, yes. But does this matter? How are you concerned
personally, how
does this concern the Mac-Port as a whole?
Or put otherwise: Why do you want to tell Maho what he is
"allowed" to upload
and what to omit?
(I'm sure you will reply that you don't command anybody to
do something, but
this is only a matter of interpretation)

And: This is not a personal attack either, even when you
might feel
like it was...

ciao
Christian

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