Orca My experiences with FireFox 3.0 and

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I am so far mostly pleased with the interaction between
FireFox 3.0 and
SVN Orca.  However, I have noticed a bit of a problem that
isn't as
major as it used to be in FireFox 2.0 but is still a bit of
a
showstopper.  Orca is now speaking the contents of a `combo
box'
correctly, but it still has trouble with a `radio button'. 
Whenever I
tab to a `radio button', all Orca speaks is `selected radio
button'.  I
find I must use the flat review keys in order to click the
correct
choice.  I can reproduce this on any web site with `radio
buttons'.  I
have also noticed that Orca doesn't speak the labels on text
boxes on
most pages.  The Google search box seems to work fine, but
most other
text boxes and other form fields aren't spoken and only tell
what kind
of fields they are.  Finally, the arrow keys don't take me
through a
page as expected whether controlled by Orca or not.  I am
finding it
easier to copy and paste the page into gedit in order to
read it than to
use Orca in FireFox to read blocks of text on the page.  Are
these
things mostly known issues that are being corrected?  Is
there something
else I need to do to help me read a web site and navigate it
better?

Thanks for any help,
Lorenzo
- -- 
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a
curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
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Hi,
and adding one more experience: The bookmarks page bug has
gone again,
since the very latest nightly build.
Let's see how long it will last.
Hermann


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Hello Lorenzo,
regarding the radio buttons: It is as you discribed, you
have to use the
flat review. But I found another way, which is also not
very
comfortable, but does its job: You can click on the selected
button, and
you will open the whole range of radio buttons; place the
cursor on the
button you want to select, and then press space bar. I did
so on the
German Google page, where you can select whether you want
the results of
the search presented from whole web, those in German or only
sites from
Germany. The radio buttons are placed horizontally.
Navigation with the cursor: It works only in a reliable way,
if you are
in an area of the same elements, either a text block or a
navigation bar
containing a variety of links etc. You should realise that a
lot of
websites are multicolumned, and it does not make much sense,
if you get
it read to you across all columns; for example think of
newspaper
homepages. That's also the reason, why copying them to Gedit
isn't
always a good idea.
I still prefere a kind of reading mode, either in a buffer
or as another
solution, where the page is presented in a text only style.
Regards
Hermann


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Hi their.  Can someone sum up the experiences using the
current Firefox 
3.0 with the latest Orca checked out of SVN?  If I would
have some input 
though, I would recomend something similar to a virtual
buffer. i.e. the 
page content is rendered.  I do know for a fact that Firefox
exposes 
enough of the DOM tree to make this possible.  Is something
for Orca being 
planned?  Reason why I ask is that if its not, we should try
and come up 
with the best way to navigate page content.  Failure to do
this may 
present problems in the long run.  So what are your thoughs
and concerns? 
Would be interested to know.
--Erik


On Sat, 10 Mar 2007, hermann wrote:

> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:04:15 +0100
> From: hermann <steppenwolf2onlinehome.de>
> To: Lorenzo Taylor <lorenzotaylor.homelinux.net>
> Cc: orca-listgnome.org
> Subject: Re: Orca My experiences with FireFox 3.0 and
> 
> Hello Lorenzo,
> regarding the radio buttons: It is as you discribed,
you have to use the
> flat review. But I found another way, which is also not
very
> comfortable, but does its job: You can click on the
selected button, and
> you will open the whole range of radio buttons; place
the cursor on the
> button you want to select, and then press space bar. I
did so on the
> German Google page, where you can select whether you
want the results of
> the search presented from whole web, those in German or
only sites from
> Germany. The radio buttons are placed horizontally.
> Navigation with the cursor: It works only in a reliable
way, if you are
> in an area of the same elements, either a text block or
a navigation bar
> containing a variety of links etc. You should realise
that a lot of
> websites are multicolumned, and it does not make much
sense, if you get
> it read to you across all columns; for example think of
newspaper
> homepages. That's also the reason, why copying them to
Gedit isn't
> always a good idea.
> I still prefere a kind of reading mode, either in a
buffer or as another
> solution, where the page is presented in a text only
style.
> Regards
> Hermann
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Orca-list mailing list
> Orca-listgnome.org
> http
://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
>

eheilsdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
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Hello Krister,
regarding you first argument: I seldom experienced such a
situation,
and, if this happens, I always find a way out. You can
always turn the
virtual mode off, you can use several webtools )some are
free, for
example see Audiodata's Webformator). And screen readers
such as Window
Eyes are able to track the mouse when using the browser
mode, because
you move it with the keypad absolutely independend.
Forms mode: You musn't dramatize the situation. What
"dreading!"
experience do you have?
Design of webpages: This seems to me a different problem
from navigating
a page. Again: You can always turn the buffer off to see how
the page
looks. And: To design a visually attractive webpage is
something very
difficault for a blind person. You never can surely check
out how a
certain graphic or image really looks like. So, if I would
have to
design a website that should be visited by the public, I
would prefere
to have a sighted person to have a final look on it. (We
even don't know
much about the needs of other handicaped persons).
And one final aspect: I prefere to do my work quick, so why
take an hour
to explore a webpage, if I can do the same in 20 minutes
using such a
nice feature like the virtual buffer.
The reasons I switched to Linux are finance, security and
privacy, and
not that i was fed up with the virtual buffer.
And what are doing if you want to read a printed text
document? You need
an OCR I guess; and which system do you use then?
Regards
Hermann


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Hi their.  As far as forms mode goes, clearly it isn't
possible.  One live 
example is how the current version of Freedombox  handles
forms once the 
page is rendered.  You never do go into a forms mode, you
simply interact 
with various UI controls that are placed on the form.  Now,
whether its 
actually possible to avoid the use of a virtual buffer,
that's a matter of 
opinion.  If we don't use a virtual buffer, then clearly
we're going to 
hve to come up with some sollutions to rendering content. 
One problem I 
can directly forsee is the communication of updates that may
occur in 
AJACX and sites that use DHTML to communicate the  fact the
content is 
changing in real-time.  Another problem I can see is how
would be navigate 
the page?  We're going to have to have some kind of flat
review mode or 
something similar here.

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:25:34 +0100
> From: Krister Ekstrom <kristerkristersplace.ws>
> To: Erik Heil <eheilsdf.lonestar.org>
> Cc: hermann <steppenwolf2onlinehome.de>,
orca-listgnome.org
> Subject: Re: Orca My experiences with FireFox 3.0 and
> 
> I do *not* want any kind of virtual buffering.
> Reasons:
> 1: in all too many circumstances in the other os i've
seen text cursors
> of the virtual buffer being placed before the mouse one
and if a link
> isn't responding when you hit return or spacebar or
something and you
> try to rout the mouse to the virtual cursor and it
fails, you're screwed.
> 2: that dreaded forms mode, need i say more?
> 3: if you want to make your own web pages, it's
virtually impossible to
> see the web page as it's really going to look, unless
of course there's
> some trick i don't know about, due to the all too
forgiving rendering of
> web pages, that makes you think you make a very good
page when in
> reality you aren't.
> These are only some of the reasons why there in my
opinion shouldn't be
> any virtual buffering if it's at all possible to avoid
it.
> I am impressed so far with how Firefox works with the
not very latest
> but still a rather late Orca. I think that navigation
is good with the
> orca controled cursor navigation. Only trouble right
now, and i wonder
> if it's an a11y thing or something else is that when
one fills in a form
> on a web page and then presses the "submit"
button FF crashes.
> /Krister
>
>
> Erik Heil wrote:
>> Hi their.  Can someone sum up the experiences using
the current Firefox
>> 3.0 with the latest Orca checked out of SVN?  If I
would have some input
>> though, I would recomend something similar to a
virtual buffer. i.e. the
>> page content is rendered.  I do know for a fact
that Firefox exposes
>> enough of the DOM tree to make this possible.  Is
something for Orca being
>> planned?  Reason why I ask is that if its not, we
should try and come up
>> with the best way to navigate page content. 
Failure to do this may
>> present problems in the long run.  So what are your
thoughs and concerns?
>> Would be interested to know.
>> --Erik
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Mar 2007, hermann wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:04:15 +0100
>>> From: hermann <steppenwolf2onlinehome.de>
>>> To: Lorenzo Taylor <lorenzotaylor.homelinux.net>
>>> Cc: orca-listgnome.org
>>> Subject: Re: Orca My experiences with FireFox
3.0 and
>>>
>>> Hello Lorenzo,
>>> regarding the radio buttons: It is as you
discribed, you have to use the
>>> flat review. But I found another way, which is
also not very
>>> comfortable, but does its job: You can click on
the selected button, and
>>> you will open the whole range of radio buttons;
place the cursor on the
>>> button you want to select, and then press space
bar. I did so on the
>>> German Google page, where you can select
whether you want the results of
>>> the search presented from whole web, those in
German or only sites from
>>> Germany. The radio buttons are placed
horizontally.
>>> Navigation with the cursor: It works only in a
reliable way, if you are
>>> in an area of the same elements, either a text
block or a navigation bar
>>> containing a variety of links etc. You should
realise that a lot of
>>> websites are multicolumned, and it does not
make much sense, if you get
>>> it read to you across all columns; for example
think of newspaper
>>> homepages. That's also the reason, why copying
them to Gedit isn't
>>> always a good idea.
>>> I still prefere a kind of reading mode, either
in a buffer or as another
>>> solution, where the page is presented in a text
only style.
>>> Regards
>>> Hermann
>>>
>>>
>>>
_______________________________________________
>>> Orca-list mailing list
>>> Orca-listgnome.org
>>> http
://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
>>>
>>
>> eheilsdf.lonestar.org
>> SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Orca-list mailing list
>> Orca-listgnome.org
>> http
://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
>

eheilsdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
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Hi Erik,
what "Freedombox" are you talking about?
Firefox has a caret browsing mode, which is supported by
Orca. In
addition the Orca team created a Orca controlled mode of the
caret
browsing, that's however not similar to the virtual buffer.
It simply
stabilizes the caret browsing provided by Firefox. It is
useful to a
certain extend, but, as Lorenzo has stated, gets stuck some
times, and
it doesn't support all operations that can be done on a
webpage - see
also Lorenzo's mail.
In addition there are certain keys that navigate the page:
"h" moves to
the next heading, "o" to the next chunk. Using the
shift key moves
backward.
However: There is a small bug I reported a few days ago:
Firefox has a
lot of hotkeys using the control key and a letter, among
them control+h
and control+o. This keystrokes cannot be used anymore, since
Orca
interprets them as navigation operations for headings and
chunks.
You see: We still are at the beginning, and there's a lot
work to be
done.
Regards
Hermann


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Hello.  The Freedombox that i'm referring too is the
Freedombox port to 
Linux that exists on freedombox.info.  to my knowledge, it
uses Python, in 
addition it uses the existing ATSPI facilities along with
the mechanisms 
that Firefox provides to access the content.  Interestingly
enough,, you 
don't get access to the browser's native interface, but it
does run of 
course within an X session.

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007, hermann wrote:

> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:01:27 +0100
> From: hermann <steppenwolf2onlinehome.de>
> To: Erik Heil <eheilsdf.lonestar.org>
> Cc: Krister Ekstrom <kristerkristersplace.ws>,
orca-listgnome.org
> Subject: Re: Orca My experiences with FireFox 3.0 and
> 
> Hi Erik,
> what "Freedombox" are you talking about?
> Firefox has a caret browsing mode, which is supported
by Orca. In
> addition the Orca team created a Orca controlled mode
of the caret
> browsing, that's however not similar to the virtual
buffer. It simply
> stabilizes the caret browsing provided by Firefox. It
is useful to a
> certain extend, but, as Lorenzo has stated, gets stuck
some times, and
> it doesn't support all operations that can be done on a
webpage - see
> also Lorenzo's mail.
> In addition there are certain keys that navigate the
page: "h" moves to
> the next heading, "o" to the next chunk.
Using the shift key moves
> backward.
> However: There is a small bug I reported a few days
ago: Firefox has a
> lot of hotkeys using the control key and a letter,
among them control+h
> and control+o. This keystrokes cannot be used anymore,
since Orca
> interprets them as navigation operations for headings
and chunks.
> You see: We still are at the beginning, and there's a
lot work to be
> done.
> Regards
> Hermann
>
>
>

eheilsdf.lonestar.org
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Thanks for the info about copying and pasting into gedit. 
Actually I
had had few problems with multicolumn pages up until now. 
Actually I
updated to the latest orca a day after posting the message
about the
cursor navigation and the problem was fixed as long as Orca
is
controlling the cursor.  I have only had the problem with
reading the
labels on form fields with the latest versions, and I have
found that
using the cursor to read the part of the page where the
fields are gives
me at least an idea of what is where.  It's much easier than
using
gedit.

Live long and prosper,
Lorenzo
- -- 
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a
curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
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Please no virtual buffering!

You copy and paste a web page into gedit to share it in an
e-mail
message and you get things in your message like

table with 3 colums and 5 rows

or

list of 7 items nesting level 3

need I say more?  Maybe this can be prevented in Orca, but
at least in a
copy and paste situation the page *must* appear as it does
on the real
screen.  Every virtual buffer implementation I have used to
this point
copies and pastes the virtual buffer instead of the real
page.  IMHO
this is completely unacceptable and shouldn't be implemented
in Orca or
FireFox.  If however a virtual buffer could be implemented
in such a way
where a select/copy/paste procedure pulls text from the real
page
instead of the virtual buffer, I may be able to warm up to
the idea
somewhat, although how do you use a virtual buffer to select
text and
then pull the text from the real page based on the
selection?  That
seems to pose quite a problem and is a showstopper for
virtual buffering
in my opinion.

Live long and prosper,
Lorenzo
- -- 
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a
curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
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