Orca Fails in Studio, Espeak Settings Not Applied in Feisty, Audio Woes

Hi,
I asked about Ubuntu Studio and Orca a while back. Well, now
I've tried it 
out and the results sure look bad. Ubuntu Studio does have
the accessibility 
boot menu and the screen reader option in it. There are also
separate 
options for text based and graphical installers. However,
when I choose the 
graphical installer and Orca, keyboard and language
selection as well as 
hardware detection happen in ASCII graphics in full-screen,
meaning Orca 
sure cannot read those. I asked for sighted help but the
install didn't 
complete that way either. It complained about not being able
to mount the 
cD, even though the installation medium is a DVD. So I
really cannot 
recommend Ubuntu Studio yet and am unsure if Orca will work
in it. Too bad I 
learned Rose Garden is QT3 only, so no accessible MIDI seq I
guess. A MIDI 
sequencer is one of the apps I absolutely need, if I'm going
to make any 
music in LInux, using the hardware I already have, too bad.

Then I tried a normal Ubuntu 7.04 system with the
accessibility options. It 
speaks using eSpeak fine in my laptop machine which is an HP
NX8220 with a 
SoundMax Digital Audio card. HOwever, the speech rate and
voice selection 
controls had no effect initially even if hitting OK or
apply. Only after I 
had quitted Orca and ran it again, did it apply the new
Espeak settings. I 
suppose this is a known problem in the version of orca that
comes with 
Ubuntu 7.04. But thought I'd mention it, just in case, if it
might be 
particular to my machine. The Ubuntu Accessibility WIki does
not mention the 
issue at all.

Also, is there anything one can do if the speech fails to
run, I.e. is there 
an accessible way to find out which sound card Gnome has
found? I have a 
TerraTec EWS88MT card on my desktop machine, its the ICE24
chipset I think, 
and it does not speak in Ubuntu 7.04 and Orca. I seem to
vaguely recall it 
used to speak in Ubuntu 6.10, so there might be hope. I know
the TerraTec 
has ALSA drivers so when eSpeak speaks does it use PortAudio
via ALSA?

I've tested both the TerraTec system wave out and the wave
out 1/2 but 
neither plays system sounds nor the speech. But it might be
that Linux has 
chosen some other out device in stead, such as the SP/DIF or
wave 7/8. But 
how can I tell without trying them all? Sometimes I've also
had issues with 
the volume on some cards. So how do I adjust the volume of
individual outs 
using the Gnome volume control? As I cannot read the text, I
would need the 
name of the volume control app so I can run it using the run
box.

Another accessibility option I would appreciate would be
both speech and 
magnification and also Braille at bootup. I have a bit of
sight left, and am 
using all 3 in WIndows, with Dolphin SUpernova.

Any help appreciated. I hope this post is not classified as
OT, as it is 
somewhat Ubuntu rrelated. But hey, Gnome and Orca Should
work the same 
regardless of distro. I suppose I should also try the Ubuntu
Accessibility 
list, too.

-- 
With kind regards Veli-Pekka Tätilä (vtatilamail.student.oulu.fi)
Accessibility, game music, synthesizers and programming:
http://www.stude
nt.oulu.fi/~vtatila/ 

_______________________________________________
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Orca-listgnome.org
http
://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca
 for more information on Orca

Hi,

I'm copying the Ubuntu Studio development mailing list to
make them 
aware of this. It seems they have chosen to use the
alternate installer, 
presumably because ubiquity does not suit their needs (?) We
would hope 
that all our derivatives choose to keep the accessibility
infrastructure 
in place so that the variety of options will be available to
everyone.

It seems there are several metapackages you can install from
the stock 
ubuntu to get the studio functionality, such as
ubuntustudio-audio. That 
can serve as a solution in the short term at least. type
'apt-get 
install ubuntustudio-audio ubuntustudio-audio-plugins' at a
command line 
or use synaptic.

The Ubuntu Studio theme is actually quite high contrast (and
inverse) so 
with bigger fonts it might be quite usable.

Henrik

Veli-Pekka Tätilä wrote:
> Hi,
> I asked about Ubuntu Studio and Orca a while back.
Well, now I've tried it 
> out and the results sure look bad. Ubuntu Studio does
have the accessibility 
> boot menu and the screen reader option in it. There are
also separate 
> options for text based and graphical installers.
However, when I choose the 
> graphical installer and Orca, keyboard and language
selection as well as 
> hardware detection happen in ASCII graphics in
full-screen, meaning Orca 
> sure cannot read those. I asked for sighted help but
the install didn't 
> complete that way either. It complained about not being
able to mount the 
> cD, even though the installation medium is a DVD. So I
really cannot 
> recommend Ubuntu Studio yet and am unsure if Orca will
work in it. Too bad I 
> learned Rose Garden is QT3 only, so no accessible MIDI
seq I guess. A MIDI 
> sequencer is one of the apps I absolutely need, if I'm
going to make any 
> music in LInux, using the hardware I already have, too
bad.
>
> Then I tried a normal Ubuntu 7.04 system with the
accessibility options. It 
> speaks using eSpeak fine in my laptop machine which is
an HP NX8220 with a 
> SoundMax Digital Audio card. HOwever, the speech rate
and voice selection 
> controls had no effect initially even if hitting OK or
apply. Only after I 
> had quitted Orca and ran it again, did it apply the new
Espeak settings. I 
> suppose this is a known problem in the version of orca
that comes with 
> Ubuntu 7.04. But thought I'd mention it, just in case,
if it might be 
> particular to my machine. The Ubuntu Accessibility WIki
does not mention the 
> issue at all.
>
> Also, is there anything one can do if the speech fails
to run, I.e. is there 
> an accessible way to find out which sound card Gnome
has found? I have a 
> TerraTec EWS88MT card on my desktop machine, its the
ICE24 chipset I think, 
> and it does not speak in Ubuntu 7.04 and Orca. I seem
to vaguely recall it 
> used to speak in Ubuntu 6.10, so there might be hope. I
know the TerraTec 
> has ALSA drivers so when eSpeak speaks does it use
PortAudio via ALSA?
>
> I've tested both the TerraTec system wave out and the
wave out 1/2 but 
> neither plays system sounds nor the speech. But it
might be that Linux has 
> chosen some other out device in stead, such as the
SP/DIF or wave 7/8. But 
> how can I tell without trying them all? Sometimes I've
also had issues with 
> the volume on some cards. So how do I adjust the volume
of individual outs 
> using the Gnome volume control? As I cannot read the
text, I would need the 
> name of the volume control app so I can run it using
the run box.
>
> Another accessibility option I would appreciate would
be both speech and 
> magnification and also Braille at bootup. I have a bit
of sight left, and am 
> using all 3 in WIndows, with Dolphin SUpernova.
>
> Any help appreciated. I hope this post is not
classified as OT, as it is 
> somewhat Ubuntu rrelated. But hey, Gnome and Orca
Should work the same 
> regardless of distro. I suppose I should also try the
Ubuntu Accessibility 
> list, too.
>
>   

_______________________________________________
Orca-list mailing list
Orca-listgnome.org
http
://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca
 for more information on Orca

Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm copying the Ubuntu Studio development mailing list
to make them 
> aware of this. It seems they have chosen to use the
alternate installer, 
> presumably because ubiquity does not suit their needs
(?)
Correct. We talked to Colin about the options we wanted to
present to
our users and it simply couldn't be done ATM. Also a live
disk isn't the
right environment to run the intensive applications we
provide. We have
no plans in the future to use a live disk installer.
> We would hope 
> that all our derivatives choose to keep the
accessibility infrastructure 
> in place so that the variety of options will be
available to everyone.
>   
For us it comes down to disk size. We will consider putting
them back in
if we dont make the target size of a CD for our next
release.
> It seems there are several metapackages you can install
from the stock 
> ubuntu to get the studio functionality, such as
ubuntustudio-audio. That 
> can serve as a solution in the short term at least.
type 'apt-get 
> install ubuntustudio-audio ubuntustudio-audio-plugins'
at a command line 
> or use synaptic.
>   
Yes. You can easily add our repo and use our packages in
Ubuntu Feisty.
They were all built by Ubuntu members. We just fell short on
time.
> The Ubuntu Studio theme is actually quite high contrast
(and inverse) so 
> with bigger fonts it might be quite usable.
>
> Henrik
>
> Veli-Pekka Tätilä wrote:
>   
>> Hi,
>> I asked about Ubuntu Studio and Orca a while back.
Well, now I've tried it 
>> out and the results sure look bad. Ubuntu Studio
does have the accessibility 
>> boot menu and the screen reader option in it. There
are also separate 
>> options for text based and graphical installers.
However, when I choose the 
>> graphical installer and Orca, keyboard and language
selection as well as 
>> hardware detection happen in ASCII graphics in
full-screen, meaning Orca 
>> sure cannot read those. I asked for sighted help
but the install didn't 
>> complete that way either. It complained about not
being able to mount the 
>> cD, even though the installation medium is a DVD.
So I really cannot 
>> recommend Ubuntu Studio yet and am unsure if Orca
will work in it. Too bad I 
>> learned Rose Garden is QT3 only, so no accessible
MIDI seq I guess. A MIDI 
>> sequencer is one of the apps I absolutely need, if
I'm going to make any 
>> music in LInux, using the hardware I already have,
too bad.
>>
>> Then I tried a normal Ubuntu 7.04 system with the
accessibility options. It 
>> speaks using eSpeak fine in my laptop machine which
is an HP NX8220 with a 
>> SoundMax Digital Audio card. HOwever, the speech
rate and voice selection 
>> controls had no effect initially even if hitting OK
or apply. Only after I 
>> had quitted Orca and ran it again, did it apply the
new Espeak settings. I 
>> suppose this is a known problem in the version of
orca that comes with 
>> Ubuntu 7.04. But thought I'd mention it, just in
case, if it might be 
>> particular to my machine. The Ubuntu Accessibility
WIki does not mention the 
>> issue at all.
>>
>> Also, is there anything one can do if the speech
fails to run, I.e. is there 
>> an accessible way to find out which sound card
Gnome has found? I have a 
>> TerraTec EWS88MT card on my desktop machine, its
the ICE24 chipset I think, 
>> and it does not speak in Ubuntu 7.04 and Orca. I
seem to vaguely recall it 
>> used to speak in Ubuntu 6.10, so there might be
hope. I know the TerraTec 
>> has ALSA drivers so when eSpeak speaks does it use
PortAudio via ALSA?
>>
>> I've tested both the TerraTec system wave out and
the wave out 1/2 but 
>> neither plays system sounds nor the speech. But it
might be that Linux has 
>> chosen some other out device in stead, such as the
SP/DIF or wave 7/8. But 
>> how can I tell without trying them all? Sometimes
I've also had issues with 
>> the volume on some cards. So how do I adjust the
volume of individual outs 
>> using the Gnome volume control? As I cannot read
the text, I would need the 
>> name of the volume control app so I can run it
using the run box.
>>
>> Another accessibility option I would appreciate
would be both speech and 
>> magnification and also Braille at bootup. I have a
bit of sight left, and am 
>> using all 3 in WIndows, with Dolphin SUpernova.
>>
>> Any help appreciated. I hope this post is not
classified as OT, as it is 
>> somewhat Ubuntu rrelated. But hey, Gnome and Orca
Should work the same 
>> regardless of distro. I suppose I should also try
the Ubuntu Accessibility 
>> list, too.
>>
>>   
>>     
>
>
>   
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Orca-listgnome.org
http
://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca
 for more information on Orca

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 01:10:53AM EST, Cory K. wrote:
> Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
> > We would hope 
> > that all our derivatives choose to keep the
accessibility infrastructure 
> > in place so that the variety of options will be
available to everyone.
> >   
> For us it comes down to disk size. We will consider
putting them back in
> if we dont make the target size of a CD for our next
release.

It also comes down to whether the applications are
accessible in the 
first place. I know for a fact, being one of the devs for
UbuntuStudio, 
that many applications are not accessible, even if they do
use GTK2, due 
to the many custom widgets that are used. We also have a few
critical 
apps that are QT, which doesn't yet have accessibility. At
this point, 
I'd say UbuntuStudio and accessibility is not going to
happen for a long 
time yet.
- -- 
Luke Yelavich
GPG key: 0xD06320CE 
	 (http://www
.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt)
Email & MSN: themusothemuso.com
Jabber: themusojabber.org.au
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R4hR1N45vw+ciLMHdl7LH9U=
=r1Hk
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 for more information on Orca

Luke Yelavich wrote:
> I know for a fact, being one of the devs for
> UbuntuStudio, that many applications are not
accessible, even if they
> do use GTK2, due to the many custom widgets that are
used.
Ouch, I was kinda afraid this would be the case. Whether its
OS X or Linux 
I'm switching to some day, music would be one thing I'd
definitely have to 
get working and I think Ubuntu Studio is a step toward the
write direction, 
though.

If the GUI hassle is anything like in Windows it means:

- People make custom controls often neglecting usability
because they: a. 
look cool, b. are portable, c. aren't already built-in.

- Most of the time they forget that knobby things should
have a keybord 
interface for manipulating them. I see no reason why knobs
could not have 
the same keyboard interface as sliders, for example.

- Not to mention that many inherently graphical things could
have a keyboard 
accessible interface. Consider a graphical envelope control
with linear 
slopes and n draggable points as in Sound FOrge. there's no
reason why you 
could not manually manage the points in a list view and some
buttons, its 
not just very handy for the sighted, so stuff like this is
not implemented 
very often.

- OFten the system controls could do with some improvements,
too. Can you 
re-order, sort by and resize columns in multi-column lists?
I think many 
GUis lifted the basic keyboard interface from windows, which
has been 
lacking this functionality for ages, for instance.

- And when you go custom enough, people dich the tab order,
visual 
affordances and the whole concept of focus as it relates to
the keyboard. 
Image-based text that is totally horibly inaccessible and
crudely 
magnifiable is a common occurence in plug-ins.

- As a low-vision user conformance to system or user colors
would be 
desired, too, but this tends to go, when custom controls
enter the picture.

This is my experience in Windows with software like reaktor,
new versions of 
Sonar and many VSt plug-ins. IS the situation this bad in
your average LInux 
MIDi seq, multi-track recorder and audio plug-ins?

> have a few critical apps that are QT
I know, like Rose Garden which is the LInux equivalent of
QWS, I guess. Too 
bad. I still think the multiplicity of GUi libs out there is
bad for 
accessibility and consistancy. Actually I would like to use
KDe in stead of 
Gnome if i could, to mention but one important example.

> At this point, I'd say UbuntuStudio and accessibility
is not going to 
> happen for a long time yet
Howabout the command-line stuff, is EmacsSpeak configured
and included? 
Someone hyped super collider to me and I've had some
positive experiences 
with the chucK programming language at a Wintel platform,
though. It would 
need more reaktor-like high-levl modules to be useful for
your average 
modular synth user, who might not want to program new
modules compare to the 
Kore technology in Reaktor. Well, that's kinda OT anyway,
and I've let the 
ChucK people know on their mailing list some time back,
too.

Without several sound cards, there are possible issues with
speech, as well, 
I guess:
Can you lock Linux audio to a particular sampling rate, such
that 22 kHz 
speech will be upsampled to that, rather than the audio
system downsampling 
everything when  there's speech? I can do this with my
TerraTec card in 
Windos, which is highly desirable but also card specific.

-- 
With kind regards Veli-Pekka Tätilä (vtatilamail.student.oulu.fi)
Accessibility, game music, synthesizers and programming:
http://www.stude
nt.oulu.fi/~vtatila/ 

_______________________________________________
Orca-list mailing list
Orca-listgnome.org
http
://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca
 for more information on Orca