If the purpose is to skip over large collections of links,
then one
presumably wouldn't want to skip over individual links
dotted around
inside ordinary text content as part of the flow of the
text. So it
might be better to check for links clumped together, e.g. 3
or more
links with only punctuation such as pipes or nothing at all
between
them, that are not inside a paragraph with other text around
them. These
could be flagged by the user interface as navigation groups.
Where the
markup allows it, such navigation groups could even be given
titles.
(The Firefox Accessibility Extension does this with
correctly marked up
navigation lists.)
In other words, the best way to solve the problem might be
to identify
navigation groups than just run to the next bit of non-link
text.
--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
Rich Caloggero wrote:
> Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:
>> If the use-case for this feature is basically to
skip long
>> navigation lists, we might (I suppose) be able to
devise more
>> efficient algorithms for doing so and create a
"Skip navigation"
>> command. Just a thought.
>
> This is in reference to the Jaws "n" and
shift+n navigation keys. As
> a Jaws user, I'd say that the primary reason for these
commands is
> definately to enable one to skip over large colections
of nav links.
>
> Its kind of problemmatic though, because while you can
certainly skip
> a series of links, how do you know when to stop? Jaws
stops when it sees
> non-anchor text of a certain minimum length. What other
algorithms might
> there be for doing this? You'll still have to end up
guessing, unless
> structural roles are used such as is being proposed by
the WAI-ARIA. See
> the following:
>
> Look at the following page, especially the section on
structural
> roles: http://www.w3.org/TR/
aria-role/
>
> See the following for a good description of Live
Regions:
> http://juicystudio.com/article/wai-aria-live-regions.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis"
<bhawkeslewis googlemail.com>
> To: "Hermann" <steppenwolf2onlinehome.de>
> Cc: <orca-listgnome.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [orca-list] Blockquotes?
>
>
>> Re: blockquote navigation
>>
>> <blockquote> is not a styling, although it is
sometimes misused for
>> styling. Table and heading elements are often
similarly misused and
>> authors frequently fail to use <p> for
paragraphs, but I assume you're
>> not opposed to navigation by table, heading, and
paragraph elements.
>>
>> It's one thing to say another feature should have
been implemented
>> first, and another thing to call for the removal of
a feature. Taking
>> features out also requires development time.
>>
>> I suspect the team's priorities are partly
determined by ease of
>> implementation, partly by personal interests, and
partly by what feature
>> requests have been made on the bug tracker. Quite
possibly I missed
>> something, but I can't find a request to read the
titles of frames
>> there, for example, even though it's a good feature
idea. It's probably
>> more efficient to request urgent features
explicitly than complain about
>> the addition of different features after the event.
>>
>> Re: Text blocks
>>
>> The Window-Eyes manual mentions "Next
text" (X) and "Previous text"
>> (Shift + X):
>>
>> http://www.gwmicro.com/W
indow-Eyes/Manual/HTML/index.html?19_15morenavigationoptions
.htm
>>
>> When I tried it out, it ignored the size of text
segments entirely,
>> happily reading out even tiny snippets of text.
Oddly, although it
>> skipped links per se, it also read out title
attributes from <abbr>
>> elements inside links. Presumably that's a bug not
a feature.
>>
>> But JAWS has a similar feature that seems closer to
your "large text
>> blocks". According to the manual:
>>
>>> Next Non Link Text use N. Moves the focus to
the next block of
>>> non-link text that is larger than 25
characters.
>>>
>>> Prior Non Link Text use SHIFT+N. Moves the
focus to the previous
>>> block of non-link text that is larger than 25
characters.
>>>
>>> Note: This value can be adjusted in the
default.jcf or browseui.jcf
>>> (Internet Explorer 5 and 6) JAWS configuration
files under Set
>>> OptionsHTML.
>> Dolphin's HAL manual says you can jump to the next
text, skipping links,
>> with Left Control + Left Shift + Cursor Right. It's
not clear from the
>> manual whether the text has to be a certain length.
>>
>> Which of these models is better?
>>
>> Some users at least seem to use the N key purely to
skip groups of
>> links. e.g. a request was made to implement this
feature in NVDA phrased
>> in the following terms:
>>
>>> Also, in Internet Explorer, can you please add
a quick key to jump
>>> to next non-link text like in JAWS with the N
key, so I can step over a large
>>> groups of links without repeatedly tapping down
arrow again and again? It just
>>> makes me tired!
>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda/04-2007/msg00
343.html
>>
>> If the use-case for this feature is basically to
skip long navigation
>> lists, we might (I suppose) be able to devise more
efficient algorithms
>> for doing so and create a "Skip
navigation" command. Just a thought.
>>
>> Re: background information
>>
>> The Window-Eyes manual specifies precisely what
properties are read out:
>>
>>> * Description – i.e. Link, Picture, Edit Box,
etc
>>> * Font – i.e. Arial, Verdana, Tahoma, etc.
>>> * Font Size – i.e. 10pt, 12px, larger, etc.
>>> * Font Style – i.e. Normal, Bold, Underline,
etc.
>>> * Foreground – Color, either named (i.e.
Purple) or in RGB (i.e. 255, 255, 0)
>>> * Background – Color, either named (i.e.
Purple) or in RGB (i.e. 255, 255, 0)
>>> * ALT text if available
>>> * TITLE text if available
>>> * Filename if the element is an image
>> http://www.gwmicro.com/Window-Eyes/
Manual/HTML/19_15morenavigationoptions.htm
>>
>> Judging from:
>>
>> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessibili
ty/ATSPI_Support
>>
>> It should be possible to extract most of this
information from AT-SPI.
>>
>> Would we want to add anything to this list (for
example axis, scope, and
>> headers attributes for table cells, or language
information)? Do we want
>> heuristics to try to put approximate names to
colour values specified in
>> hexadecimal? How about special treatment for
microformats using the
>> title attribute, e.g. to store an ISO date? Would
we want key bindings
>> for particular properties or groups of properties,
or just one key
>> binding for all of them? What order should they
come in?
>>
>> Re: large objects
>>
>> I guess what these mysterious "large
objects" are is something that
>> should be explained in the Orca manual. Without
knowing what it is
>> supposed to be, it's hard to assess the feature.
"Large" doesn't seem to
>> be the right word for what it's doing, which based
on a bit of
>> experiment seems to mainly involve skipping over
lists.
>>
>> --
>> Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
>>
>> Hermann wrote:
>>> Hello Benjamin,
>>> to make a long story short: I think you've
confirmed my point of view that
>>> the blockquotes feature is not really
necessary, since this styling of
>>> webpages is often missused.
>>> Asking for different features, I referred to
developping capacities; I
>>> dodn't want to stress the fatct, whether they
are comparable or not. Or, to
>>> put it in a simple image: The team sometimes
tends to serve the pie before
>>> they
>>> have served the beef; I prefere the other way.
>>> When I talk about textblocks, I suggest you
download and install any
>>> Windows screen-reader and check out how Jaws,
Window-Eyes or the
>>> Webformator handle this feature. It is simple a
navigation helper.
>>> Large Objects: It's not the point whether I can
reproduce the navigation, I
>>> simply don't know what those
"objects" are. It seems to me they can be
>>> anything, which means, in the end, they mean
nothing. A link is a link is a
>>> link, and a heading is a heading is a heading.
But I've absolutely no idea
>>> about the systematics of that odd
"objects"; that's why I call the "large
>>> object" navigation stochastical.
>>> Background information: Download and install
the mentioned
>>> screen-readers/web-tools. Place the cursor on,
let's say a link, Press
>>> insert+shift+f1 in Jaws, insert+e in
Window-Eyes or f11 in Webformator.
>>> Then you know what I mean. And BTW: In Firevox
the keystroke is
>>> control+shift+q; press it several times and you
know what I'm talking
>>> about.
>>> I'm an everyday scren-reader user and a common
web user and my point of
>>> view is the user's
>>> perspective, that's the whole story.
>>> Hermann
>>>
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