Re: Outdent and Hanging Indent

Theo:

> That's the opposite PGS uses those words....

I had noticed that. As I tried to say, I was expounding on
the way /I/ 
happen to think of them. It's probably best to think of them
as synonyms.

> ...But
> most sites refer to the way I hope to type
> here...

Ah, the frustration of this list system is that there's no
way of 
formatting text to illustrate points without resorting to
HTML (or 
equivalents) which upsets some people.* That's why I was so
wordy. I'm 
glad my meaning came through. Your examples were all flush
left, but I 
understood you.

Just to beat a dead horse, before PageStream (and
"personal publishing" 
for that matter), I used to use an online typesetting
service called 
"Intertech High Tech Typesetting." You uploaded a
plain text file with 
their typesetting commands embedded in it. The file went
into a PC which 
parsed out your account information and redirected the rest
into a 
professional typesetting machine. When the typesetter
finished, the PC 
created your bill and mailing label. Your type came back to
you a matter 
of hours later via FedEx on a roll of photo paper, ready for
cut and 
paste. It was actually easier than it sounds. They provided
a profusely 
illustrated manual that was well over 200 pages long. You
could create 
macro commands within the header of your file that were the
equivalent 
of "styles" in PageStream and, of course, the
macro capabilities of the 
word processor gave you a way of creating simple shortcut
commands for 
inserting common commands that you used repetitively. 
What-you-see-is-what-you-get was extremely rare on PCs in
those days, so 
they also had a utility program that would parse your file
and at least 
show you about where line breaks were and about how deep a
column or 
paragraph would be at the specified type size and margins.

Anyway, I was just looking at one of their manuals, and they
define four 
indent commands and two tabular indent commands. The indent
commands are:

Hanging Indent {ih...}
Indent on Left (il...}
Indent on Right {ir...}
Indent on Text 

The stuff in braces is the opening command with the length
of the indent 
in picas and points replacing the ellipses. ""
after a "quad left" 
 closed any of the commands. ("Quad Left" is
typesetting parlance 
for a paragraph marker.) As you can see, there is no
"outdent" command. 
Indent on Text is what I was calling a "hanging
indent," and I think 
it's a better way of describing it. It's also what I believe
"Indent 
Here" does in PageStream. Intergraphics describes it
this way:

"The third type of indent is used when you wish to
indent after a 
symbol, word, or number where the width is unknown. This is
most 
commonly used in numbered lists, where you want subsequent
lines to 
align with the word following the number."

A "Hanging Indent" is, as you've found, what you
get in PageStream by 
combining a negative first line value and a positive left
indent. The 
first line of a paragraph is "outdented" by a
fixed amount of space. 
This PageStream method is the most versatile way of doing
it, but for 
conventional hanging indents, it's more work than simply
specifying a 
hanging indent of x.yy picas and points as you would do it
in the 
Intergraphics system. Overall it's just a matter of
semantics. In the 
future, I'll use "hanging indent" as it's commonly
used and "indent on 
text" for the format used in lists. The only drawback
is that when I use 
Indent on Text in lists, I'm often also thinking in terms of
a 
right-flush tab directly in front of the indent. Refer back
to my 
description in the previous response and consider how a
numbered list 
that ran from 1 to 100 would look with and without a right
flush tab for 
the number.

______________

*I see more and more people like yourself using Yahoo's
native response 
system. The messages come to me as some sort of HTML image.
I can't 
highlight a section of text in my email program after I
click Reply. 
Back in the days, people complained loudly if someone used
HTML in 
messages to the list. They said it was a waste of bandwidth,
a burden on 
folks with only dial-up service, and a violation of the
rules for email 
exchanges. However, I haven't seen any complaints about
these Yahoo 
messages. Maybe we've come at last to a time when we can use
HTML on 
this list without offending anyone. It would have been a
godsend in my 
original message and to you in your response since we could
just have 
used the native formatting tools of our email programs to
show what we 
were talking about instead of wasting space with long
descriptions. In 
my original post, the extra verbiage added much more to the
"bandwidth" 
than the embedded HTML codes would have.

Of course, for those using the Yahoo thingy, that depends on
what its 
capabilities are. It would be odd if it didn't allow
formatted text when 
it's attaching the navigation sidebar to the message
anyway.

HB


 
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Henry G Belot wrote:

HB,

I agree with you on Yahoo.  Trying to edit a rely with all
that Yahoo 
garbage added produces really weird results using
Thunderbird.  Of all 
my email correspondence, several lists, Pagestream is the
only list that 
that Yahoo infests.  I don't have an explanation to assist
at the moment 
but I will look at it seriously.  Really annoying.

Harry
>
>
> ______________
>
> *I see more and more people like yourself using Yahoo's
native response
> system. The messages come to me as some sort of HTML
image. I can't
> highlight a section of text in my email program after I
click Reply.
> Back in the days, people complained loudly if someone
used HTML in
> messages to the list. They said it was a waste of
bandwidth, a burden on
> folks with only dial-up service, and a violation of the
rules for email
> exchanges. However, I haven't seen any complaints about
these Yahoo
> messages. Maybe we've come at last to a time when we
can use HTML on
> this list without offending anyone. It would have been
a godsend in my
> original message and to you in your response since we
could just have
> used the native formatting tools of our email programs
to show what we
> were talking about instead of wasting space with long
descriptions. In
> my original post, the extra verbiage added much more to
the "bandwidth"
> than the embedded HTML codes would have.
>
> Of course, for those using the Yahoo thingy, that
depends on what its
> capabilities are. It would be odd if it didn't allow
formatted text when
> it's attaching the navigation sidebar to the message
anyway.
>
> HB
>



> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



 
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Henry G Belot schreef:
> Theo:
>
>   
>> That's the opposite PGS uses those words....
>>     
>
> I had noticed that. As I tried to say, I was expounding
on the way /I/ 
> happen to think of them. It's probably best to think of
them as synonyms.
>
>   
>> ...But
>> most sites refer to the way I hope to type
>> here...
>>     
>
> Ah, the frustration of this list system is that there's
no way of 
> formatting text to illustrate points without resorting
to HTML (or 
> equivalents) which upsets some people.* That's why I
was so wordy. I'm 
> glad my meaning came through. Your examples were all
flush left, but I 
> understood you.
>
>
>   
Snip...

Those were the days...

> ______________
>
> *I see more and more people like yourself using Yahoo's
native response 
> system. The messages come to me as some sort of HTML
image. I can't 
> highlight a section of text in my email program after I
click Reply. 
> Back in the days, people complained loudly if someone
used HTML in 
> messages to the list. They said it was a waste of
bandwidth, a burden on 
> folks with only dial-up service, and a violation of the
rules for email 
> exchanges. However, I haven't seen any complaints about
these Yahoo 
> messages. Maybe we've come at last to a time when we
can use HTML on 
> this list without offending anyone. It would have been
a godsend in my 
> original message and to you in your response since we
could just have 
> used the native formatting tools of our email programs
to show what we 
> were talking about instead of wasting space with long
descriptions. In 
> my original post, the extra verbiage added much more to
the "bandwidth" 
> than the embedded HTML codes would have.
>
> Of course, for those using the Yahoo thingy, that
depends on what its 
> capabilities are. It would be odd if it didn't allow
formatted text when 
> it's attaching the navigation sidebar to the message
anyway.
>
> HB
>   

Henry and Harry:
That's an easy one. Not I did and do this, but they at Yahoo
did that!
I did complain at Yahoo, but they never give any response.

At the end of the e-mail is 'Change Delivery Settings'
button. Log in at 
Yahoo.
In Step 3: change from 'Fully Featured' to 'Traditional'.

Now you can edit the e-mails again!

(How did you manage that so easy all these months. I hate
this HTML-like 
approach from Yahoo. Especially when you respond to an
e-mail.)

Theo


 
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Hi Henry,

I saw the part about HTML email and here's my 2 cents.

On Saturday 20 January 2007 11:56, Henry G Belot wrote:
[snip]
> *I see more and more people like yourself using Yahoo's
native response
> system. The messages come to me as some sort of HTML
image. I can't
> highlight a section of text in my email program after I
click Reply.
> Back in the days, people complained loudly if someone
used HTML in
> messages to the list.

I'm one of those annoying people who dislikes HTML email.
For me it isn't (and 
never has been) an issue of bandwidth. HTML isn't
particularly dense, but it 
isn't incredibly verbose either -- I don't see that HTML
itself adds that 
much to the size of an email.

There are numerous other faults with using HTML as email,
but to touch only 
briefly on the topic it used to be a foundation of spam and
virus emails. I 
still have a catch-all filter that throws unfiltered HTML
email into the 
trash. Very effective at catching spam that the spam filters
don't.

That said, I understand your complaint about the lack of
formatting in email. 
The thing is you really don't have it with HTML email either
-- only if the 
recipient is using an appropriate reader with approprate
settings (which for 
security reasons they really should NOT be doing, especially
if they are 
using Windows).

What I find works well in those situations is posting an
example to a web 
page. There you can use HTML if you wish (obviously), but
you can use a 
graphic to ensure that information is displayed properly
(HTML renders 
differently in different browsers/ on different systems) or
even put up a PgS 
file. Then in the email simply put a link to where the
information is at. You 
don't need HTML for that: at worst the individual can cut
and paste the link 
into a browser and all modern email programs understand
links of the form 
http://www.mywebpage.com


If you don't have personal web space to host the content you
can upload it to 
the group.

Tim Doty


 
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