Services_IMDB ??

Hi,

I've written a class that acts as an interface to IMDB, so
you can
easily retrieve movie information. I'm thinking of
submitting it to
pear, after making it completely compliant with the coding
standards
and such (which it is not at the moment, so I do not think I
can
propose it as is).

But i would first like to know if there are any objections
against
such a piece of code,  considering e.g. the IMDB terms of
use? Or are
those issues entirely up to the end user/programmer, and is
it okay to
have that code in pear.

I found it kind of strange Services_IMDB didn't already
exist so I
figured there must be something against it.

Please let me know before i'm investing all of my time in
it.

Kevin van Zonneveld
Work | http://www.true.nl/
About | http://kevin.vanzonnev
eld.net/
Project | http://www.tabsource.org/

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Hi

On 5/19/07, Kevin van Zonneveld <kevmastergmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've written a class that acts as an interface to IMDB,
so you can
> easily retrieve movie information. I'm thinking of
submitting it to
> pear, after making it completely compliant with the
coding standards
> and such (which it is not at the moment, so I do not
think I can
> propose it as is).


Well it would be fine setting up the proposal and just
stating that the code
is not up to the PEAR CS yet

But i would first like to know if there are any objections
against
> such a piece of code,  considering e.g. the IMDB terms
of use? Or are
> those issues entirely up to the end user/programmer,
and is it okay to
> have that code in pear.


And the terms of use are ? For those of us that don't want
to read through
it all 

- Helgi

Hi (Helgi, thanks for your thoughts),

On 5/19/07, Helgi Žormar <helgithgmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> On 5/19/07, Kevin van Zonneveld <kevmastergmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've written a class that acts as an interface to
IMDB, so you can
> > easily retrieve movie information. I'm thinking of
submitting it to
> > pear, after making it completely compliant with
the coding standards
> > and such (which it is not at the moment, so I do
not think I can
> > propose it as is).
>
> Well it would be fine setting up the proposal and just
stating that the code
> is not up to the PEAR CS yet
>

Ok I think I will go ahead like you say then!

> > But i would first like to know if there are any
objections against
> > such a piece of code,  considering e.g. the IMDB
terms of use? Or are
> > those issues entirely up to the end
user/programmer, and is it okay to
> > have that code in pear.
>
> And the terms of use are ? For those of us that don't
want to read through
> it all 
>

I think the most interesting parts of their terms are:

"Robots and Screen Scraping: You may not use data
mining, robots,
screen scraping, or similar data gathering and extraction
tools on
this site, except with our express written consent as noted
below."

"We do allow the limited use of robots and crawlers,
such as those
from certain search engines, with our express written
consent. If you
are interested in receiving our express written permission
to use
robots or crawlers on our site, please contact our
Licensing
Department."

(full terms  http
://www.imdb.com/help/show_article?conditions)

Maybe I can just include their terms in my code, and leave
it up to
the end user whether or not and under what conditions to use
the code.

Kevin van Zonneveld
Work | http://www.true.nl/
About | http://kevin.vanzonnev
eld.net/
Project | http://www.tabsource.org/

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Hi

On 5/19/07, Kevin van Zonneveld <kevmastergmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi (Helgi, thanks for your thoughts),
>
> On 5/19/07, Helgi Žormar <helgithgmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > On 5/19/07, Kevin van Zonneveld <kevmastergmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I've written a class that acts as an
interface to IMDB, so you can
> > > easily retrieve movie information. I'm
thinking of submitting it to
> > > pear, after making it completely compliant
with the coding standards
> > > and such (which it is not at the moment, so I
do not think I can
> > > propose it as is).
> >
> > Well it would be fine setting up the proposal and
just stating that the
> code
> > is not up to the PEAR CS yet
> >
>
> Ok I think I will go ahead like you say then!


Good 


> > But i would first like to know if there are any
objections against
> > > such a piece of code,  considering e.g. the
IMDB terms of use? Or are
> > > those issues entirely up to the end
user/programmer, and is it okay to
> > > have that code in pear.
> >
> > And the terms of use are ? For those of us that
don't want to read
> through
> > it all 
> >
>
> I think the most interesting parts of their terms are:
>
> "Robots and Screen Scraping: You may not use data
mining, robots,
> screen scraping, or similar data gathering and
extraction tools on
> this site, except with our express written consent as
noted below."
>
> "We do allow the limited use of robots and
crawlers, such as those
> from certain search engines, with our express written
consent. If you
> are interested in receiving our express written
permission to use
> robots or crawlers on our site, please contact our
Licensing
> Department."
>
> (full terms  http
://www.imdb.com/help/show_article?conditions)
>
> Maybe I can just include their terms in my code, and
leave it up to
> the end user whether or not and under what conditions
to use the code.


Yes that's not a bad idea, have you looked at how f.ex. they
do it in python
version or perl or similar ?

Pretty sure they have similar modules there with the exact
same problem
(regarding the terms)

Regards
Helgi

Kevin van Zonneveld wrote:
> Hi (Helgi, thanks for your thoughts),
> 
> On 5/19/07, Helgi Žormar <helgithgmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> On 5/19/07, Kevin van Zonneveld <kevmastergmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> > But i would first like to know if there are
any objections against
>> > such a piece of code,  considering e.g. the
IMDB terms of use? Or are
>> > those issues entirely up to the end
user/programmer, and is it okay to
>> > have that code in pear.
>>
>> And the terms of use are ? For those of us that
don't want to read
>> through
>> it all 
> 
> I think the most interesting parts of their terms are:
> 
> "Robots and Screen Scraping: You may not use data
mining, robots,
> screen scraping, or similar data gathering and
extraction tools on
> this site, except with our express written consent as
noted below."
> 
> "We do allow the limited use of robots and
crawlers, such as those
> from certain search engines, with our express written
consent. If you
> are interested in receiving our express written
permission to use
> robots or crawlers on our site, please contact our
Licensing
> Department."
> 
> (full terms  http
://www.imdb.com/help/show_article?conditions)
> 
> Maybe I can just include their terms in my code, and
leave it up to
> the end user whether or not and under what conditions
to use the code.
> 

IMO that'd make it a big NO. Unless IMDB comes up with its
own web
service API with associated Terms & Conditions (which I
haven't look if
they do) I don't see that package as a good candidate for
PEAR.

Anyway, screen scrappers are usually a nightmare to maintain
and prone
to breaking easily.

I don't think PEAR should host "enabler" packages,
and obviously using
such a package require the user to break the T's & C's.

 -Philippe

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On 5/19/07, Philippe Jausions <Philippe.Jausions11abacus.com> wrote:

> IMO that'd make it a big NO. Unless IMDB comes up with
its own web
> service API with associated Terms & Conditions
(which I haven't look if
> they do) I don't see that package as a good candidate
for PEAR.


I've heard it's in the pipeline but well, might just be
gossip

Anyway, screen scrappers are usually a nightmare to maintain
and prone
> to breaking easily.
>
> I don't think PEAR should host "enabler"
packages, and obviously using
> such a package require the user to break the T's &
C's.


Well they are breaking the T&C if they don't get a
written permission,
that's all.

On 5/19/07, Helgi Žormar <helgithgmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/19/07, Philippe Jausions <Philippe.Jausions11abacus.com> wrote:
>
> > IMO that'd make it a big NO. Unless IMDB comes up
with its own web
> > service API with associated Terms & Conditions
(which I haven't look if
> > they do) I don't see that package as a good
candidate for PEAR.
>
>
> I've heard it's in the pipeline but well, might just be
gossip
>
> Anyway, screen scrappers are usually a nightmare to
maintain and prone
> > to breaking easily.
> >
> > I don't think PEAR should host "enabler"
packages, and obviously using
> > such a package require the user to break the T's
& C's.
>
>
> Well they are breaking the T&C if they don't get a
written permission,
> that's all.
>


Knowing IMDB, I am against that kind of package in PEAR as
this is
both not ethical and not legal according to the
"License and Site
Access" part of the  htt
p://www.imdb.com/help/show_article?conditions.

Making such package into pear yes, could be very useful but
I am
strongly about making that kind of package available and
easy to use
for everyone. As anyone that ever did scripts like those
know, it is
hell to maintain, since it is not API based, it's relying on
the HTML
pages to do hardcore regular expressions. This because
really hard to
maintain because as soon as one tag changes and the whole
package can
become unusuable.

It is also against my personal ethics. I believe that if you
have a
company and want information, then buy it instead of
*spidering*
through a website, grabbing the information that matters to
you.

Yes it is easy to do, but as long as IMDB does not have an
online API
I am strongly against that.

Reminder: "Robots and Screen Scraping: You may not use
data mining,
robots, screen scraping, or similar data gathering and
extraction
tools on this site, except with our express written consent
as noted
below."

Of course with written consent it's doable, but I am totally
against
opening this to the public.

-- 
David Coallier,
Founder & Software Architect,
Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com
)
51.42.06.70.18

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Helgi Žormar wrote:
> On 5/19/07, *Philippe Jausions*
<Philippe.Jausions11abacus.com
> <mailto:Philippe.Jausions11abacus.com>>
wrote:
>
>     IMO that'd make it a big NO. Unless IMDB comes up
with its own web
>     service API with associated Terms & Conditions
(which I haven't
>     look if
>     they do) I don't see that package as a good
candidate for PEAR. 
>
>
> I've heard it's in the pipeline but well, might just be
gossip
It might very well be true, given that IMDb is now an Amazon
company,
and they push a lot of WS APIs
>
>     Anyway, screen scrappers are usually a nightmare to
maintain and prone
>     to breaking easily.
>
>     I don't think PEAR should host "enabler"
packages, and obviously using
>     such a package require the user to break the T's
& C's. 
>
>
> Well they are breaking the T&C if they don't get a
written permission,
> that's all.
True, but in that case the package may need to require some
kind of
license ID/reference # from IMDb to create an instance, not
that it
would actually do anything in the code, but it would remind
the end user
that the package needs an extra step before being used.
Legal stuff are
always a PITA.

In any case, might be better to wait for Amazon's to deliver
the API
first. (which reminds me I still have a Services_Alexa
proposal in the
pipeline that needs attending 

 -Philippe

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On 5/19/07, Philippe Jausions <Philippe.Jausions11abacus.com> wrote:
>
> Helgi Žormar wrote:
> > On 5/19/07, *Philippe Jausions*
<Philippe.Jausions11abacus.com
> > <mailto:Philippe.Jausions11abacus.com>>
wrote:
> >
> >     IMO that'd make it a big NO. Unless IMDB comes
up with its own web
> >     service API with associated Terms &
Conditions (which I haven't
> >     look if
> >     they do) I don't see that package as a good
candidate for PEAR.
> >
> >
> > I've heard it's in the pipeline but well, might
just be gossip
> It might very well be true, given that IMDb is now an
Amazon company,
> and they push a lot of WS APIs
> >
> >     Anyway, screen scrappers are usually a
nightmare to maintain and
> prone
> >     to breaking easily.
> >
> >     I don't think PEAR should host
"enabler" packages, and obviously
> using
> >     such a package require the user to break the
T's & C's.
> >
> >
> > Well they are breaking the T&C if they don't
get a written permission,
> > that's all.
> True, but in that case the package may need to require
some kind of
> license ID/reference # from IMDb to create an instance,
not that it
> would actually do anything in the code, but it would
remind the end user
> that the package needs an extra step before being used.
Legal stuff are
> always a PITA.
>
> In any case, might be better to wait for Amazon's to
deliver the API
> first. (which reminds me I still have a Services_Alexa
proposal in the
> pipeline that needs attending 


Among other things you need to give extra attention 

Hi All,

On 5/19/07, Helgi Žormar <helgithgmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/19/07, Philippe Jausions <Philippe.Jausions11abacus.com> wrote:
> > Helgi Žormar wrote:
> > > On 5/19/07, *Philippe Jausions*
<Philippe.Jausions11abacus.com
> > > <mailto:Philippe.Jausions11abacus.com >> wrote:
> > >
> > >     IMO that'd make it a big NO. Unless IMDB
comes up with its own web
> > >     service API with associated Terms &
Conditions (which I haven't
> > >     look if
> > >     they do) I don't see that package as a
good candidate for PEAR.
> > >
> > > I've heard it's in the pipeline but well,
might just be gossip
> > It might very well be true, given that IMDb is now
an Amazon company,
> > and they push a lot of WS APIs
> > >
> > >     Anyway, screen scrappers are usually a
nightmare to maintain and
> prone
> > >     to breaking easily.
> > >
> > >     I don't think PEAR should host
"enabler" packages, and obviously
> using
> > >     such a package require the user to break
the T's & C's.
> > >
> > >
> > > Well they are breaking the T&C if they
don't get a written permission,
> > > that's all.
> > True, but in that case the package may need to
require some kind of
> > license ID/reference # from IMDb to create an
instance, not that it
> > would actually do anything in the code, but it
would remind the end user
> > that the package needs an extra step before being
used. Legal stuff are
> > always a PITA.
> >
> > In any case, might be better to wait for Amazon's
to deliver the API
> > first. (which reminds me I still have a
Services_Alexa proposal in the
> > pipeline that needs attending 

Although I agree that maintaining this package would
definitely
require updates from time to time, IMDB does not change
their layout
really often and I would be happy to supply solid error
handling and
quick fixes when they do.

And I really think that a lot of programmers would
appreciate this
feature. It is the legal/ethic stuff however that I'm just
not sure
about, and fair enough; if this is the general consensus, I
can
totally understand that so I'm postponing my work on this
project.

Thanks for all of your input, when I've got a less
controversial idea
maybe I'll try again ;)

Chiao,
Kevin van Zonneveld
Work | http://www.true.nl/
About | http://kevin.vanzonnev
eld.net/
Project | http://www.tabsource.org/

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