Pylons Logo Design

Dear all,

Ben and I have started thinking again about what really
makes Pylons 
different from other web frameworks and how we can best
highlight those 
differences in the Pylons marketing to help attract people
to the 
community and see Pylons gain further recognition and
adoption.

As part of the process we'd like to hire a professional
designer to 
create a new and striking logo for Pylons but we don't know
of anyone 
suitable ourselves so I'd like to send out a challenge: Does
anyone on 
the list know a top notch logo designer who they can
recommend and who 
might be interested in helping us design a fresh Pylons
logo?

Any recommendations will be much appreciated and after we've
discussed 
the options here on the list we'll commission the person
whose work best 
reflects Pylons.

Cheers,

James

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Hi, James...

On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 09:57:31AM +0100, James Gardner
wrote:
> Ben and I have started thinking again about what really
makes Pylons 
> different from other web frameworks and how we can best
highlight those 
> differences in the Pylons marketing to help attract
people to the 
> community and see Pylons gain further recognition and
adoption.
> 
> As part of the process we'd like to hire a professional
designer to 
> create a new and striking logo for Pylons but we don't
know of anyone 
> suitable ourselves so I'd like to send out a challenge:
Does anyone on 
> the list know a top notch logo designer who they can
recommend and who 
> might be interested in helping us design a fresh Pylons
logo?
> 
> Any recommendations will be much appreciated and after
we've discussed 
> the options here on the list we'll commission the
person whose work best 
> reflects Pylons.

I'm not sure if you followed the discussion we had on IRC
about logos.
Yannick Gingras pointed out that http://www.everaldo.com/
is supporting
open-source projects. Might be worth a try. The artwork
doesn't look
ugly.

 Christoph


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Hi Christoph,

I didn't see the discussion actually but I've just had a
look at the 
logs. Actually I like the style of the everaldo icons and
logos, do you 
know if they are very costly?

Cheers,

James


Christoph Haas wrote:
> Hi, James...
>
> On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 09:57:31AM +0100, James Gardner
wrote:
>   
>> Ben and I have started thinking again about what
really makes Pylons 
>> different from other web frameworks and how we can
best highlight those 
>> differences in the Pylons marketing to help attract
people to the 
>> community and see Pylons gain further recognition
and adoption.
>>
>> As part of the process we'd like to hire a
professional designer to 
>> create a new and striking logo for Pylons but we
don't know of anyone 
>> suitable ourselves so I'd like to send out a
challenge: Does anyone on 
>> the list know a top notch logo designer who they
can recommend and who 
>> might be interested in helping us design a fresh
Pylons logo?
>>
>> Any recommendations will be much appreciated and
after we've discussed 
>> the options here on the list we'll commission the
person whose work best 
>> reflects Pylons.
>>     
>
> I'm not sure if you followed the discussion we had on
IRC about logos.
> Yannick Gingras pointed out that http://www.everaldo.com/
is supporting
> open-source projects. Might be worth a try. The artwork
doesn't look
> ugly.
>
>  Christoph
>
>
> >
>   


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On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 11:43:00AM +0100, James Gardner
wrote:
> I didn't see the discussion actually but I've just had
a look at the 
> logs. Actually I like the style of the everaldo icons
and logos, do you 
> know if they are very costly?

>From IRC (Yannick is not subscribed here):

12:57 < YGingras> Signum: but for the record, they can
cost 1k$ but they do
                  support free software.  The best think to
do is to ask them
                  what they are willing to do within your
budget
12:59 < YGingras> Signum: you can use the contact form
on
                  http://www.yellowicon.com/

13:01 < YGingras> Signum: but I have other contacts
from designers who made
                  graphics for Ubuntu that will charge much
less if price is an
                  issue

Consider joining us at #pylons on irc.freenode.net. 

Cheers
 Christoph


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This is all highly opinionated, but here are some of my
suggestions.

I think you should consider changing domain names.  I don't
think the 
name Pylons is bad, just combined with the domain
pylonshq.com it just 
doesn't stick.  I'd suggest using pylonsframework.org for
the following 
reasons:

.org - Eludes to an open source/non-profit.   If Pylons is
open 
source/non-profit I think its a feature that you should
mention to your 
visitors... I didn't see licensing information anywhere on
the homepage?

pylonsframework - Eludes to Pylons being a framework right
in the 
domain.  I'd click on a URL for pylonsframework.org before
pylonshq.com.

In general, the things that brought me to Pylons was the 1)
speed and 
libraries of Python and 2) MVC development.  Both are not
even mentioned 
on  the homepage.  It should be in the first paragraph. 
WSGI seems 
important, even if I didn't know why, but not a reason I'd
choose Pylons 
over another framework.  Its not something that I would say
in the first 
paragraph.   I'd say that most people care about two things:
speed (both 
development time and application performance) and stability.
 These two 
key points should be the focus of the introduction, to grab
the visitors 
attention.  I do think Pylons is flexible, which can be a
feature, but 
it can also be a hindrance... especially for newbies.  Thats
tricky.

I hate to mention the word, but 'screencasts' is almost a
standard.  It 
wouldn't hurt if someone could put one together.

I hope that I'm not coming off as being overly critical. 
Pylons is a 
great framework.  Keep up the good work!


James Gardner wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Ben and I have started thinking again about what really
makes Pylons 
> different from other web frameworks and how we can best
highlight those 
> differences in the Pylons marketing to help attract
people to the 
> community and see Pylons gain further recognition and
adoption.
>
> As part of the process we'd like to hire a professional
designer to 
> create a new and striking logo for Pylons but we don't
know of anyone 
> suitable ourselves so I'd like to send out a challenge:
Does anyone on 
> the list know a top notch logo designer who they can
recommend and who 
> might be interested in helping us design a fresh Pylons
logo?
>
> Any recommendations will be much appreciated and after
we've discussed 
> the options here on the list we'll commission the
person whose work best 
> reflects Pylons.
>
> Cheers,
>
> James
>
> >
>   

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El vie, 01-06-2007 a las 10:21 -0400, Dan escribió:
> This is all highly opinionated, but here are some of my
suggestions.
> 
> I think you should consider changing domain names.  I
don't think the 
> name Pylons is bad, just combined with the domain
pylonshq.com it just 
> doesn't stick.  I'd suggest using pylonsframework.org
for the following 
> reasons:
> 
> .org - Eludes to an open source/non-profit.   If Pylons
is open 
> source/non-profit I think its a feature that you should
mention to your 
> visitors... I didn't see licensing information anywhere
on the homepage?

+1

> pylonsframework - Eludes to Pylons being a framework
right in the 
> domain.  I'd click on a URL for pylonsframework.org
before pylonshq.com.

+1

> In general, the things that brought me to Pylons was
the 1) speed and 
> libraries of Python and 2) MVC development.  Both are
not even mentioned 
> on  the homepage.  It should be in the first paragraph.
 WSGI seems 
> important, even if I didn't know why, but not a reason
I'd choose Pylons 
> over another framework.  Its not something that I would
say in the first 
> paragraph.   I'd say that most people care about two
things: speed (both 
> development time and application performance) and
stability.  These two 
> key points should be the focus of the introduction, to
grab the visitors 
> attention.  I do think Pylons is flexible, which can be
a feature, but 
> it can also be a hindrance... especially for newbies. 
Thats tricky.

Things to mention:
  - In the python way.
  - Easy and flexible
  - WSGI
   

> I hate to mention the word, but 'screencasts' is almost
a standard.  It 
> wouldn't hurt if someone could put one together.

+1

My two euro cents ;)

Greetings


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On Jun 1, 2007, at 7:21 AM, Dan wrote:

> I think you should consider changing domain names.  I
don't think the
> name Pylons is bad, just combined with the domain
pylonshq.com it just
> doesn't stick.  I'd suggest using pylonsframework.org
for the  
> following
> reasons:
>
> .org - Eludes to an open source/non-profit.   If Pylons
is open
> source/non-profit I think its a feature that you should
mention to  
> your
> visitors... I didn't see licensing information anywhere
on the  
> homepage?
>
> pylonsframework - Eludes to Pylons being a framework
right in the
> domain.  I'd click on a URL for pylonsframework.org
before  
> pylonshq.com.

I think once we add some additional sitemap data, so that
Google  
automatically displays the full description of our site
(Pylons  
Framework....) the domain name won't matter much. At this
point it  
would prolly be very bad to change domain names, since we
could end  
up losing our top Google search result spot for
"Pylons" which we  
currently have.

> I hate to mention the word, but 'screencasts' is almost
a  
> standard.  It
> wouldn't hurt if someone could put one together.

They're coming, and Jon R. actually has some together. Part
of the  
new site redesign would highlight these and bring news of
updates to  
a more visible front.

But right now... we need a good logo. Something people would
be happy  
to have on a t-shirt even.  

Cheers,
Ben

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On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 10:21:12AM -0400, Dan wrote:
> This is all highly opinionated, but here are some of my
suggestions.
> 
> I think you should consider changing domain names.  I
don't think the 
> name Pylons is bad, just combined with the domain
pylonshq.com it just 
> doesn't stick.  I'd suggest using pylonsframework.org
for the following 
> reasons:
> 
> .org - Eludes to an open source/non-profit.   If Pylons
is open 
> source/non-profit I think its a feature that you should
mention to your 
> visitors... I didn't see licensing information anywhere
on the homepage?
> 
> pylonsframework - Eludes to Pylons being a framework
right in the 
> domain.  I'd click on a URL for pylonsframework.org
before pylonshq.com.

I second every single word of the above statement.
pylonshq.com is
really a weird URL. IMHO "djangoproject.com"
suffers from similar
problems like "pylonshq.com". They are
.com(mercial) and they are a
project instead of a creator of some software. Everything
with "project"
sounds like new-age jargon for a music band.

pylonsproject.org is it. Or maybe pylons-framework.org.

> In general, the things that brought me to Pylons was
the 1) speed and 
> libraries of Python and 2) MVC development.  Both are
not even mentioned 
> on  the homepage.  It should be in the first paragraph.
 WSGI seems 
> important, even if I didn't know why, but not a reason
I'd choose Pylons 
> over another framework.

It has taken a while until I understood the meaning of it.
And many web
developer will hardly care about WSGI. Writting middleware
is not a job
for a coffee break unless it's your daily business.

> Its not something that I would say in the first 
> paragraph.   I'd say that most people care about two
things: speed (both 
> development time and application performance) and
stability.  These two 
> key points should be the focus of the introduction, to
grab the visitors 
> attention.

Hmmm, speed and stability. I'd rather outline fun and
production-savvyness. "paster shell" is fun.
"--reload" is fun. The
online debugger is fun. And its community - small but great.


> I do think Pylons is flexible, which can be a feature,
but 
> it can also be a hindrance... especially for newbies. 
Thats tricky.

It's very likely not a feature for newbies. I was scared by
it. And
while I write some more documentation on Pylons I'm
increasingly scared
the more I see. Well, soon I'll be a guru perhaps and Ben et
al will
come out with a new version that makes my knowledge
deprecated.

> I hate to mention the word, but 'screencasts' is almost
a standard.  It 
> wouldn't hurt if someone could put one together.

On the Python wiki there are >30 different web
frameworks. Even if
someone decides that among the 5 frameworks is Pylons then
the web site
needs to give a lot of information in very little time
highlighting the
fun features. A screencast would be great (30 minutes are
far too much -
perhaps 5-10 minutes). I'd even do it myself but I'm unsure
whether my
spoken english will probably rather drive people away. 

 Christoph

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On 6/1/07, Dan <danagnit.com> wrote:
> I think you should consider changing domain names.  I
don't think the
> name Pylons is bad, just combined with the domain
pylonshq.com it just
> doesn't stick.  I'd suggest using pylonsframework.org
for the following
> reasons:
>
> .org - Eludes to an open source/non-profit.   If Pylons
is open
> source/non-profit I think its a feature that you should
mention to your
> visitors... I didn't see licensing information anywhere
on the homepage?
>
> pylonsframework - Eludes to Pylons being a framework
right in the
> domain.  I'd click on a URL for pylonsframework.org
before pylonshq.com.

I like PylonsHQ.  What we should do is put "Pylons
Headquarters" at
the top of the site as a segue from the domain name to the
site.
Pylonshq is short and easy to type.  I just hate compound
words as
domain names: footemplate, fooframework, fooinc. 
pylons-framework.org
is much better if we need that "framework" word. 
But how many people
see a link with the raw URL in it, with nothing else around
it?  Not
the people we're marketing to.  Just deep links to
mailing-list
messages and the like.

Pylonshq.org is available.  Why don't we snap it up and make
it an
alias.  Then we'll have the ability to make it the primary
site later.
 Would we really lose our Google ranking if we made .com a
redirect to
.org?  Lots of sites have both.

> In general, the things that brought me to Pylons was
the 1) speed and
> libraries of Python and 2) MVC development.  Both are
not even mentioned
> on  the homepage.  It should be in the first paragraph.
 WSGI seems
> important, even if I didn't know why, but not a reason
I'd choose Pylons
> over another framework.  Its not something that I would
say in the first
> paragraph.   I'd say that most people care about two
things: speed (both
> development time and application performance) and
stability.  These two
> key points should be the focus of the introduction, to
grab the visitors
> attention.  I do think Pylons is flexible, which can be
a feature, but
> it can also be a hindrance... especially for newbies. 
Thats tricky.

The introduction can be improved, certainly.  I wasn't here
when
Pylons was started or the website was created, but my sense
is that
Pylons has evolved since then.  Its first adherents were
looking for
*any* framework that was Paste-ified (and thus WSGI-ified)
from the
ground up, and Pylons was it.  Now we're getting more
Pythoneers who
want "something more modular than Turbogears",
non-Pythoneers who want
"something like Rails", newbies who want
"something easy to code,
scalable, performant, and stable".  The trick is to
address all these
audiences.  If we focus totally on newbies, that leaves
everybody else
cold.  Plus we need to focus on building 1.0 right now, not
on
bringing in hordes of newbies  Because...

    - we need all hands on deck
    - we don't have the resources to train a huge influx of
newbies.
after we get 1.0 and the documentation finished, then we'll
be in a
better position
    - upcoming changes may require changes in applications
or cause a
period of instability.  Not what newbies are thrilled
about.
    - other frameworks frankly do a better job of meeting
newbie's
needs.  Why compete with them in a half-assed way?

I'm not saying don't make the site newbie-friendly.  I'm
just saying
let's not neglect the other audiences.

You're right that WSGI is no longer important enough to fill
1/3 of
the introduction.  WSGI has become an infrastructure piece
that all
frameworks should support or else.  Nevertheless, Pylons'
use of WSGI
as the core rather than an add-on is worth noting, as well
as the ease
of of plugging multiple applications into the same URL space
via Paste
or within a Pylons controller should be noted.

"Pylons combines the very best ideas from the worlds of
Ruby, Python
and Perl, providing a structured but extremely flexible
Python web
framework. It's also one of the first projects to leverage
the
emerging WSGI standard, which allows extensive re-use and
flexibility
-- but only if you need it. Out of the box, Pylons aims to
make web
development fast, flexible and easy."

The first and last sentences are vague.  TurboGears uses
hyperlinks to
substantiate each claim.  Mako gives you many of its
features in a
nutshell.  SQLAlchemy has a table of features and
elaborations, and a
link to testimonials.  Cheetah does the same, tells where it
is being
used ("to generate C++ code, Java, sql, form emails,
and even Python
code"), and has a couple quotes on the home page.

> I hate to mention the word, but 'screencasts' is almost
a standard.  It
> wouldn't hurt if someone could put one together.

True, they help and persuade new users a lot.

Regarding the logo, I'm more concerned about the theme than
the
details.  What guidelines are we going to give the designer?
 Just
"make a logo"?  Or "make a logo containing an
electrical tower"?  It's
really up to us to choose our mascot, not leave it to the
logo
designer, otherwise he may go off totallyon a tangent. 
Though it's
worth asking him if he has some different ideas.  I like the
current
yin-yang snakes in the Python logo  but I didn't like some
of the
previous logos and refused to wear T-shirts that had them. 
Quixote
has some windmill logos but what's so "Quixote"
about them?

-- 
Mike Orr <sluggostergmail.com>

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