09:15 < quaid> <meeting>
09:15 < glezos> got carried away in a chinese buffet
09:16 < quaid> BobJensen. glezos, couf_away,
stickster_afk good morning
09:16 < BobJensen> Morning Karsten
09:16 < glezos> Agenda is here:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/St
eeringCommittee/Meetings
09:16 * BobJensen has company so will be here hit and miss
09:17 < quaid> ok, I can handle the first item easily
09:17 < quaid> we got the final release notes dropped
for translation
yesterday, it ended up only being about 12
hours late
09:18 < quaid> Paul actually had the POT/PO updated
only a few hours after
midnight UTC, but i did a final edit pass
since it was the
literally last chance for the ISO.
09:18 < quaid> from here, we'll track changes for the
Web-only update, which
will also include a chance to update
translations for the Web.
09:18 < quaid> and the cycle continues ...
09:19 < glezos> quaid: that's not a problem since
translators can start working
on the first right away
09:19 * quaid also sent out a whiney, 3 am blog post on the
subject
09:19 < quaid> oh, on a related subject
09:20 < quaid> we had a few small weirdnesses, but the
notes and translations
all made it into test4 just fine, middle of
last week
09:20 < quaid> the schedule here is a bit brutal,
because of the extra days we
added for trans this time.
09:21 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser 195.229.25.134] has joined
#fedora-docs
09:21 < jmbuser> Sorry I'm late...
09:21 < glezos> quaid: we can study when did our l10n
contributors committed
their translations (were they on the first 2
days or on the
last 2 days, weekdays or weekends) to see if
the extra days
were used after all.
09:21 < quaid> ok! good idea
09:22 < BobJensen> +1
09:22 < quaid> jmbuser: no worries, better safe than
sorry
09:22 -!- hers [n=chatzill222.248.201.228] has joined
#fedora-docs
09:22 < quaid> jmbuser: we started a little bit later
and are just on the first
topic
09:22 * quaid blasts current log of meeting to jmbuser in
pm
09:24 < quaid> ok, that seems a completed topic
09:24 < jmbuser> quaid: thanks
09:24 * quaid is working on closing f-dsco-l at this
moment, too
09:25 < glezos> quaid: fedora-dsco-list?
09:25 -!- hers [n=chatzill222.248.201.228] has quit
[Client Quit]
09:25 < quaid> glezos: yes
09:25 < quaid> ok, so, moving on ...
09:26 < jmbuser> BTW, I want to thanks everyone,
especially quaid, stickster
09:26 < JonRob> +1
09:26 < quaid> I didn't want to dive into a long
discussion of recruiting and
retaining for the project
09:26 < quaid> jmbuser: thanks
09:26 < quaid> I think the R&R discussion is good
for the list
09:27 < quaid> but I wanted to address it enough so
that those here are
thinking about it, and will participate in
the discussion
09:28 < quaid> any thoughts on the subject for here?
09:29 < glezos> quaid: I remember a similar discussion
a month ago and a
suggestion from me:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-do
cs-list/2007-March/msg00090.html
09:29 < quaid> ok, making it easier to contribute is
always a good idea
09:30 < quaid> some stuff improves with Wiki changes,
etc.
09:30 < JonRob> i definately feel, as a new member
here, that some kind of a
more clear todo list would be a good idea
09:31 < glezos> for retaining, two good ways to make
it happen could be to make
ideas of new members easier to happen and to
make them
maintainers of them, again, early on.
09:31 < quaid> one of my concerns is with existing
projects, though, and
starting more new projects isn't going to
help that as much.
09:31 < glezos> JonRob: +1. Our TaskSchedule page is a
mess and shows stuff
we've been working for months but didn't
achieve
(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProjec
t/SteeringCommittee/TaskSchedule)
09:32 < quaid> maybe step 1 is to straighten out the
current task needs before
making it easier to start new stuff
09:32 < JonRob> quiad: yes
09:32 < quaid> also, that is an FDSCo task schedule
09:32 < quaid> not a project task schedule
09:32 < quaid> http:
//fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks
09:32 < quaid> that is a methodology document!
09:32 < quaid> eek
09:33 < glezos> quaid: didn't know about that. (the title
of the page reads
"Fedora Docs Open Tasks")
09:33 < quaid> seems like a good place to start would
be to distill and
organize tasks there, right?
09:33 < quaid> glezos: right, that is also a problem
09:33 < jmbuser> quaid: Despite stickster's heroic
efforts, I'm still a little
fuzzy on the Beats process
09:33 < quaid> jmbuser: you mean, the technical weenie
parts, or the social
content gathering parts/
09:33 < glezos> quaid: people see those tasks and say
"no way I could help with
those stuff!"
09:33 < jmbuser> quaid: the former
09:34 < quaid> ok, so task 1 from this meeting is:
09:34 < quaid> 1. Rework DP/SC/TaskSchedule and
DP/Tasks so the former is all
for FDSCo and obvious, and the latter is
generic and well
pointed at
09:35 < glezos> quaid: is there a real need to
separate the two?
09:35 < quaid> good question
09:35 < glezos> I mean, both of them are FDP tasks,
it's just that some of them
need more experience.
09:35 < quaid> good point
09:35 < quaid> that is probably an outfall of
sometimes on FDSCo would be
avaialble to do stuff
09:36 < JonRob> if you put them together at least have
them under clear
headings, otherwise could be
overwhelming/scary
09:36 < glezos> yup
09:36 < quaid> maybe a column, "Expertise level
required"
09:36 < JonRob> something similar to the layout of the
new join page?
09:37 < quaid> JonRob: you mean the master Join page?
wiki/Join
09:37 < JonRob> yeah
09:37 < quaid> perhaps, although that design seems to
work great for directing
desire, but not as much for tracking tasks
09:38 < JonRob> the clear headings with sharp bullet
points make it accessible
though
09:38 < quaid> ah, I see
09:39 < JonRob> something which some sort of a todo
list needs to be to make
new users feel they can really bite
09:39 < quaid> ok, we'll start with reworking and
combining those pages into
one; means retiring the TaskSchedule most
likely since that is
an obscure URL
09:39 < quaid> anything else? or to the list with
this discussion?
09:40 < glezos> the more clear we are on what we *are*
doing and what we *want*
to do (and how important/urgent) each task
is, the better
picture new and experienced members would
choose where to turn
their attention to
09:40 < glezos> ok for the list..
09:40 < quaid> +1
09:40 < jmbuser> quaid: proceed
09:40 < quaid> http:
//fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2007
09:40 < quaid> for those who aren't aware
09:40 < quaid> we have two main projects there, and a
closely related to us one
(man/info publication)
09:41 < glezos> yay for Fedora Docs!
09:41 < quaid>
09:41 < quaid> so, just be aware that Google gave 2
extra months at the
beginning for
09:41 < jmbuser> glezos: Congrats on your winning
entry
09:41 < quaid> getting people connected into the
projects early
09:42 < quaid> so, we know what glezos is doing, that
has been well discussed
09:42 < glezos> jmbuser: thanks
09:42 < quaid> what daMaestro (JonathanSteffan) is
doing is the magic between
Plone and the rest of our tools
09:43 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2007/J
onathanSteffan
09:43 < quaid> you can read all the cracky ideas there
09:43 < glezos> quaid: unfortunately, I won't be able
to really get my hands on
code until the end of May. However we could
start some work on
setting up the domain, discussing the
details etc.
09:43 < quaid> glezos: that's to be expected, sure
09:43 < quaid> glezos: you are already ahead of the
curve anyway
09:44 < quaid> the extra time really serves people
where the student is brand
new to the project
09:44 < glezos> yup
09:44 < quaid> there is one other interesting thing
we're going to be seeing
worked out onlist soon, I hope
09:44 < quaid> a student in a different summer of code
project is also working
on the man/info project
09:44 < quaid> from a different angle
09:44 < quaid> so we're likely to send up with a
couple of solutions there.
09:45 < glezos> cool
09:45 < jmbuser> excellent
09:45 < quaid> yeah, unfortunately they are not
allowed to work together, a
strange irony of the SoC process
09:45 < jmbuser> hmmmmm
09:46 < quaid> any questions here, or shall we move on
to discuss F7 guides?
09:46 < jmbuser> quaid: nothing wrong with interfacing
independently with FDP?
09:47 < quaid> nope
09:47 < quaid> don't think so
09:48 < jmbuser> quaid: that's good
09:48 < quaid> we'll see how it progresses, maybe a
natural break occurs to
make it modular v. two parallel projects, and
we get one to work
on part A, the other on part B
09:48 < quaid> I haven't contacted the other mentor
for this yet
09:51 < glezos> shall we move on?
09:51 < jmbuser> +1
09:51 < quaid> thx, yes
09:51 * quaid is also making roll-up pancakes
09:51 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Sche
dule#guides-schedule
09:52 < quaid> so, that is for any guides that wanted
to be translated and
shipped with F7
09:53 < jmbuser> quaid: so any changes to the DUG are
for next release?
09:54 < quaid> uh, well
09:54 < quaid> that is only if we want to ship with
the release
09:54 < quaid> maybe that is unrealistic
09:54 < glezos> too bad :(
09:54 < quaid> or rather, it is obviously unrealistic
now
09:54 < quaid> well, we can ship non-trans with the
release
09:54 < quaid> at least the DUG is moving forward
09:55 < JonRob> what's happening with the DUG after
last meeting? or is that a
topic for the list?
09:57 < quaid> list topic, I reckon
09:57 < jmbuser> JonRob: I think so, too
09:57 < quaid> so, maybe checking on the IG and AG are
both good list topics
09:58 < glezos> quaid: slightly off-topic: do we have
an estimation for a
working Plone installation?
09:58 < quaid> glezos: fairly soon, in terms of
installed to work with;
mmcgrath has it on his task list right now,
aiui
09:58 < glezos> I'm asking to see how soon could we
start into resolving some
of the fragmentation we have in our various
Docs
09:59 < quaid> it will be later in the Summer for
magic to start happening
09:59 < glezos> ok, thanks
10:01 < glezos> anything else to be added before
moving to L10N?
10:01 < quaid> nope
10:01 < glezos> okie
10:02 < glezos> so, *some* stats for our translations
is at:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Transl
ation/Statistics
10:02 < glezos> not too helpful probably (guides are
not mentioned there) but
quite some translators have requested access
to the cvsl10n
group
10:03 < glezos> One of the tasks we could have for
this week, as mentioned
earlier, is to see when translations for
relnotes were
submitted to see how many days translators
actually need
10:04 < glezos> Since we don't yet have a stats page,
some reminders to the
-trans-list about urgent docs needing
translations, and
generally, updates on our docs, could be
very useful
10:05 < jmbuser> glezos: Are the stats something you
are developing further
this summer?
10:05 < quaid> ok, good point
10:05 < glezos> jmbuser: yes, it's a major part of the
GSoC project.
10:05 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2007/Di
mitrisGlezos
10:06 < quaid> details there
10:06 < glezos> quaid: the more updates the better.
Even one-liners; the l10n
team actually feels a bit un-informed about
doc/app updates
10:06 * jmbuser thinks updates and stats are good
10:06 < quaid> ok!
10:06 < quaid> maybe a daily or every-other-day update
at this point would be
good, sure
10:07 < quaid> glezos: here is why i am shy ... I have
written often to
f-trans-l without a response, so i don't know
when it helps that
i email, and I don't want people to burn out
on seeing my
address
10:07 < glezos> quaid: have you checked about
responses in the form of CVS
commits?
10:08 < glezos> I mean, Paul wrote recently about
reverting the xml2po flag but
I didn't reply to him that I updated the
greek translation of
docs-common
10:09 < glezos> One final point that recently concerns
me is that of
translation of the Website (Wiki for now) in
general. We have
been absolutely horrible in this respect b/c
the wiki simply
lacks a l10n workflow but I hope that Plone
will fix this.
10:09 < quaid> hmm, ok
10:09 < quaid> how?
10:09 < quaid> how will Plone fix this?
10:10 < glezos> it supports l10n for every page
10:10 < quaid> are you thinking we'll move to the
Plone Wiki tool from Moin?
10:10 < glezos> quaid: no, I am not conerned in
translating every wiki page,
just the important ones
10:11 < quaid> ok
10:11 < quaid> ah! good point
10:11 < glezos> at some point we will need to decide
what will be transferred
to Plone, right? Like GNOME, they have
gnome.org but also a
wiki at live.gnome.org
10:11 < quaid> we need to identify pages that need to
move from Wiki to Plone
10:11 < quaid> right
10:11 * mmcgrath notes we can have a production plone
instance very soon.
10:11 < jmbuser> Both moinmoin and plone have their
uses
10:11 < quaid> this is something we can start to do
before daMaestro starts his
thing, i think
10:11 < mmcgrath> pre F7.
10:12 < glezos> quaid: sure. Also, we'd need to see
how we are going to
implement docs.fedoraproject.org (separate
Plone instance? etc)
10:12 < glezos> anyway, this falls in the scope of the
Websites Project I guess.
10:12 < quaid> probably a dive into a specific
location in Plone
10:12 < quaid> yeah
10:14 < glezos> I'm through with what is on my mind
about Docs+L10N
10:14 < quaid> mmcgrath: cool
10:14 < quaid> sorry
10:14 < quaid> that wasn't directed at mmcgrath
actually
10:15 < quaid> ok, anything else?
10:16 * quaid should be able to do the log and summary
again this week
10:16 < quaid> already working on it
10:16 < glezos> quaid: great, thanks
10:16 < jmbuser> quaid: Thanks
10:16 < JonRob> awesome 
10:17 < quaid> sorry I'm such a crappy project
manager, btw, it's not my
strongest suit
10:17 < quaid> if it were, I know FDP would be in a
bit better shape
10:17 < glezos> quaid: how much better?
10:17 * quaid contemplates recruiting poelstra to help
10:17 < quaid> glezos: different-better
10:18 * glezos should return to study now. ta ta guys
10:18 < quaid> actuallly ... I'll talk with John about
FDP being an early
adopter of his PM methodologies
10:18 < quaid> we're good at that
10:18 < quaid> yep, we can finish
10:18 < quaid> </meeting>
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