12:09 < stickster> <meeting>
12:09 < stickster> We have two agenda items, then on
to AOB.
12:09 < stickster> ht
tp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings
12:09 < stickster> (shorter URL link, redirects to
canonical page)
12:10 < stickster> The first thing up is a Docs status
report for F8, let's let couf and jmbuser elaborate
12:10 < EvilBob> BobJensen
12:10 < stickster> Hi BobJensen!
12:10 < couf> AG is shaping up to become something
decent
12:10 < couf> it's come a long way
12:11 < jmbuser> +1
12:11 < stickster> There's quite a bit of new material
there, kudos!
12:11 < couf> we were going to convert to cvs
yesterday but due to some bad schedules we missed that
12:12 < couf> I'm going to let it in the wiki for 1
more week before doing the conversion
12:12 < stickster> Did you guys arrive at a consensus
for doing CVS conversion? Is that going to hamper
contribution at all?
12:12 < couf> we're going to try and keep it in cvs
then
12:12 < couf> it's a testcase
12:12 < couf> if it doesn't work out, well then it's
back to the wiki
12:13 < stickster> I note that there's very little in
the AG about the standard GUI toolset (System >
Administration > [...])
12:13 < couf> right, good point
12:14 < couf> I'm writing up something for the list to
digest, points to consider, ...
12:14 < stickster> Sure... People can add comments to
the list traffic then
12:15 < stickster> I would like to see the Guide do
more along the lines of solving the simple use cases before
it goes into tremendous detail about the ins and outs of
config files.
12:16 < couf> the thing is, people tend to find
administration complicated and want to read more then they
can really use
12:16 < stickster> For instance, Users: 1. Adding a
User; 2. Deleting a User; 3. Adding a Group; 4. Deleting a
Group; 5. Modifying a User's Group Membership; 6. User
Private Groups; 7. ....
12:16 < couf> I feel that's reflected in the current
state
12:17 < stickster> Right, so to me *de-emphasizing*
the complicated stuff, or pushing it later in a chapter,
makes more sense
12:17 < stickster> Start small, build the skill as the
chapter goes along
12:17 < couf> right
12:17 < jmbuser> Agree
12:17 < EvilBob> IMO for every "Guide" there
is also room for a "Quick Start"
12:18 < stickster> EvilBob: Sure, I feel that each
chapter/topic is really best served up as a quick start,
then a slightly less-quick start, then a slow deep dive
12:18 < EvilBob> yup
12:18 < couf> so that's an important part of my
to-the-list message
12:18 < stickster> If you look at the goal of any
document as a skill-building tool, then you have to start
with the most fundamental, elementary skills, then build on
them
12:19 < stickster> couf: Great, we can delve into this
more on-lis then
12:19 < stickster> *on-list
12:20 < stickster> couf: As the leader for that doc,
you should feel free to encourage the writers to follow your
blueprint ideas
12:20 < couf> yeah, just noting: I probably won't be
around for the rest off the week so if someone could help
and follow-up in my place, that would be great
12:20 < stickster> Let's also not forget that our
deadline here is self-imposed -- so if we need an extra week
or two, it's there.
12:21 < stickster> jmbuser: Want to talk about the
DUG? I know we had a few contributors pop up to help.
12:21 < jmbuser> Yes, great to have the help...thanks
to Marc and, just recently, Dan
12:22 < jmbuser> Even had a few edits today
12:22 < stickster> jmbuser: There was a John Wess on
the list too, who seemed keen on helping
12:23 < stickster> Looks like he's got edit rights
now, too
12:23 < jmbuser> yes, I need to see if I made contact
with him yet
12:23 < stickster> Side note to all:
12:23 < jmbuser> I got generous with the approvals
recently 
12:23 < stickster> This is always the most fertile
time for getting contributors -- right after a new release
12:24 < stickster> The quicker we can grab onto those
contributors and get them started, the more likely they'll
stick around and make lasting contributions
12:24 < jmbuser> especially a good release like fedora
8
12:25 < stickster> jmbuser: And don't worry about the
CVS thing, like I said, it's not a big worry
12:26 < stickster> Mainly I wanted people to be aware
that translators don't need to have cvsdocs access, one less
hoop through which to jump 
12:26 < couf> do we need to talk about that some
more?
12:26 < stickster> This is one reason that we went to
using a "po/LINGUAS" file in CVS instead of
editing the Makefile -- now translators can simply add
themselves in if they're translating a new locale
12:26 < stickster> couf: I'm not sure
12:26 < stickster> The key points are:
12:27 < stickster> (1) we don't have any problems
giving people CVS access
12:27 < stickster> (2) translators don't need
'cvsdocs' group membership to do their work
12:27 < stickster> (3) most CVS administrators feel
better using least privilege
12:27 < couf> right
12:27 < stickster> (4) since there are other people
involved in CVS admin duties than just me and quaid, we'll
err on the side of not giving the others heartburn
12:28 < stickster> Having said that, people can author
docs in our CVS in a non-"en_US" locale
12:28 < couf> so do we want to flesh out the cvsdocs
group?
12:28 < stickster> We don't want to prevent anyone
from doing that
12:28 < stickster> couf: You mean, do we want to add
new contributors to that group?
12:29 < couf> no, I think a new contributor on docs
should have cvsdocs access
12:29 < stickster> sure
12:29 < couf> but there are a lot of translators in
cvsdocs, which don't need anything than cvsl10n
12:30 < stickster> couf: Good point that
12:30 < stickster> It might be a good reason to cull
that list a little
12:30 < stickster> couf: Are you able to maybe raise
this topic in fedora-trans-list?
12:30 < couf> sure
12:30 < stickster> With the main reason being that
'cvsl10n' gives them everything they need, and not because
we don't love them
12:31 < couf> yep
12:31 < stickster> L10N ROXXX!
12:31 < stickster> m/_ _m/
12:32 < couf> all righty, next?
12:32 < stickster> OK, I'll look for that thread,
thanks couf
12:33 < stickster> I know quaid might have some input
too, he can pop in here to let us know if there's something
(new) dumb that I've done
12:33 < stickster> Well, roundup on Release Notes is
probably in order
12:33 < couf> sure
12:34 < stickster> At least to note that we should be
pressing a package update in about a week or so
12:34 < stickster> That's 'nuff said, I think
12:35 -!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to:
Documentation Meeting: election planning
12:35 < couf> elections yay
12:36 < stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Policy/
FDSCoElections
12:36 < stickster> I thought we had something out
there, cool..
12:36 < stickster> This has some interesting
implications with culling the 'cvsdocs' group
12:36 < stickster> But I think it makes sense
12:37 < stickster> Opinions?
12:37 < couf> it does, but I'm not sure translators
need to vote on dsco, they have lsco (or something like
that)
12:38 < stickster> Right
12:38 < jmbuser> Should we cull the cvsdocs group
before the election?
12:38 < couf> imo, ys
12:38 < couf> yes
12:39 < jmbuser> yes to culling
12:39 < stickster> jmbuser: Right, that's where I was
pointing... I would hate people to look at that and think we
were trying to "disenfranchise" voters :-D
12:39 < stickster> OTOH, as couf said, l10n voters
have their own committee
12:40 < stickster> Their work definitely dovetails
with ours, certainly
12:40 < stickster> I guess I would lean toward culling
the list before we put up nominations
12:40 < EvilBob> If they are interested in Voting why
not let them
12:40 < EvilBob> if they are not interested in our
election they will not vote
12:41 < couf> true
12:41 < jmbuser> true
12:41 < EvilBob> I don't see why having someone that
primarily does translation vote in our election is a
problem, our work here does effect them
12:41 < stickster> EvilBob: The only "why
not" reason I could give would be the same reason that,
for instance, FESCo elections aren't open to people who
don't do any maintenance
12:41 < jmbuser> too many voters usually isn't the
problem with our election
12:42 < stickster> But I don't see that as a good
reason, so...
12:42 < stickster> I think the funny thing is, this is
a good reason not to give out CVS access willy-nilly
12:42 < EvilBob> I would say no culling until after
the election
12:42 < stickster> But in a volunteer project where so
many people work together closely, it seems silly not to let
people have a say
12:43 < stickster> Let's put it this way -- I
coordinated a lot of POT work with release notes for the
last cycle.
12:43 < stickster> That impacted a lot of L10N
resources.
12:43 < EvilBob> after the election we can clean up
the list and those that want to be part of our process can
get added back in
12:43 < couf> okay, I'm starting to turn into a cull
after elections
12:43 < stickster> If people there hate how I handle
things, why shouldn't they be allowed to express it?
12:43 < jmbuser> no culling then
12:43 < stickster> Yeah, I think I'm having a
mind-changing experience
12:43 < couf>
12:43 < EvilBob> I win!
12:44 < stickster> haha
12:44 < couf> lol
12:44 < couf> so dates?
12:44 < stickster> Let's back-burner this until
post-election, but it will be the responsibility of the new
FDSCo to make sure it gets done within, say, two weeks after
elections.
12:44 < stickster> Should be a fairly easy job..
12:44 < EvilBob> stickster: +1
12:44 < couf> okay +1
12:45 < jmbuser> +1
12:45 < EvilBob> thanks guys
12:45 < stickster> Well, our charter says we should
try to coincide with the FESCo elections
12:45 < stickster> I'll make sure abadger_afk knows we
would like to do that
12:46 < stickster> for instance, by shouting
abadger_afk
12:46 < EvilBob> stickster: yes and make sure he can
handle two elections at one time
12:46 < abadger_afk> stickster: yo!
12:46 -!- abadger is now known as abadger1999
12:46 < stickster> See, it's like magic! He's like our
guardian democratic angel
12:47 < couf> when's the FESCo election? I thought
that happend some time ago?
12:47 < stickster> couf: Already for post-F8?
12:47 < stickster> I couldn't have missed that news,
could I? :-
12:47 * stickster knows quite well he very well could have
12:47 * couf could be wrong
12:47 < abadger1999> FESCo has annual elections. So
they were post-F7
12:47 < couf> aha
12:47 < stickster> Ah, not per release?
12:48 < abadger1999> Correct
12:48 < stickster> OK. Our charter has them per
release, which I believe we confirmed last cycle.
12:48 < couf> so we could maybe tie into the FAMSCo
elections then?
12:48 < stickster> Sure.
12:48 < stickster> abadger1999: We just want to make
sure we're not giving people election fatigue
12:48 * EvilBob is listening to some local guys down on San
Andres Island working a morse code contest.
12:49 < couf> https://www.redhat.com/archiv
es/fedora-ambassadors-list/2007-November/msg00078.html
12:49 < stickster> Once we come up with dates,
abadger1999, can I just get in touch with you?
12:49 < abadger1999> Okay. We still don't have a way
to hold multiple elections at the same time :-(
12:49 < stickster> Oh, gotcha.
12:49 < EvilBob> OK
12:49 < abadger1999> No one's had time to rewrite the
app.
12:50 < abadger1999> stickster: Yep. Go ahead and
send me the details and I'll set it up.
12:50 < stickster> That reminds me, I may have entered
that issue in your trac db, but I'm not sure.
12:50 < stickster> It was probably a "we'll get
to this post-apocalypse" issue :-D
12:50 < stickster> Thanks abadger1999, will do.
12:50 < stickster> All right, gang, we should probably
figure out who's up this time -- that should be easy to find
out from looking at the post-F7 ML archives.
12:51 < stickster> Let's do that on-list, eh?
12:51 < EvilBob> I am not up this time, but I would
like to offer up my seat as I have not been that active.
12:51 < jmbuser> ok
12:52 < couf> euh, that would be post f6
12:52 < couf> we didn't have an election last time,
due to lack of time
12:52 < stickster> Oh, is that right?
12:52 < stickster> whoops.
12:52 < EvilBob> couf: right
12:52 < couf> we were going to have one, but it just
didn't happen
12:53 < couf> in that case, actually all seats should
be up for election
12:53 < stickster> couf: Are you sure? I see updates
on the Elections page back around February 2007
12:53 < couf> unless we decide differently
12:53 < couf> we were going to have one in August too
12:53 < EvilBob> couf: no I think we simply pushed out
the schedule
12:54 < stickster> Ah yes, I see where you're pointing
couf
12:54 < couf> ah yeah, maybe we should reallign it
with the more formal release schedule
12:54 < stickster> Right. So this will be our
mid-cycle election -- perhaps doing this at some point
significantly before Alpha, so that we don't end up doing
this in the middle of the release pushes
12:55 < couf> +1
12:55 < stickster> That would mean around three weeks
from now -- maybe coinciding somewhat with Christmas,
although that shouldn't be a big problem with a two-week
vote period
12:56 < EvilBob> +1
12:56 < jmbuser> +1
12:56 < couf> yeah, alpha is scheduled for 15 Jan, so
that would be okay
12:56 < EvilBob> stickster: so just after the
ambassadors election?
12:56 < stickster> EvilBob: what are their dates
12:56 < stickster> ?
12:56 < couf> see above link
12:56 < EvilBob> Nominations: 11/21/2007 to
12/2/2007
12:56 < EvilBob> Voting Period: 12/4/2007 to
12/11/2007
12:57 < stickster> self.head.conk()
12:57 < stickster> Sure, that seems opportune, then.
12:57 < stickster> We could do voting for a week or
so, that seems plenty for our-sized group.
12:57 < stickster> Say, 12/11 - 12/18, or 12/12 -
12/19
12:57 < couf> self nomination untill 12/20
12:58 < couf> wow, I meant 12/12
12:58 < EvilBob> so 18th - 25th or the 1st?
12:58 < stickster> I would go for noms 12/4 - 12/11,
then voting somewhere around 12/12 - 12/19
12:58 < couf> right
12:58 < EvilBob> if we start voting a week after
ambassadors I think it might be good
12:59 < stickster> I think the worry would be doing a
week during the week of Christmas -- bad idea
12:59 < stickster> Plus, we need some time between the
election close and the ramp-up of the Alpha release, to make
sure we're getting our guides off the ground
13:00 < stickster> We can hit this more on list
13:00 < EvilBob> the holiday is the 25th, so the 18th
start date would give a week before then and 4 voting days
before people leave for a week+
13:01 < stickster> I don't see what the extra week
gains us, other than white space on a calendar
13:02 < stickster> The priority I was looking at was
moving back from the release schedule milestone dates
13:02 < EvilBob> abadger1999: how soon after the
ambassadors election can youhave our's ready?
13:02 < stickster> We could always split the middle,
do something like 12/15-12/22
13:03 < stickster> That has the added bonus of
capturing all or part of two weekends
13:03 < EvilBob> stickster: yeah I was just looking at
the 14th here
13:03 < abadger1999> EvilBob: The next day. People
usu. like to have two weekends, though.
13:03 < stickster> Maybe 15-22 Dec, or 15-23 Dec would
be best.
13:03 < EvilBob> stickster: 14 -24?
13:04 < EvilBob> stickster: that gives us almost 2
weekend
13:04 < stickster> EvilBob: Sure. The length of the
voting period seems excessive for as small a number of votes
as we're likely to get, but meh
13:04 < stickster> Let's do that.
13:04 < stickster> +1
13:04 < couf> and he wins again
13:04 < stickster> EvilBob is active when it comes to
arguing :-D
13:04 < jmbuser> +1
13:04 < EvilBob> nominations in by the 12th, voting
14-24
13:04 < EvilBob> stickster: LOL
13:05 < stickster> EvilBob: disco
13:05 < stickster> All right, AOB?
13:05 < jmbuser> EvilBob shoots...and scores!
13:05 < stickster> 15 sec
13:05 < couf> just noting: sorry to not enter into the
sig/project thread, I seemed to not have any pro/cons either
way
13:05 * stickster clock resets
13:06 < stickster> Not a problem. I think we resolved
it the right way
13:06 < stickster> cooler heads usually prevail.
13:06 < couf> yeah
13:06 < stickster> AOB?
13:06 < couf> anyway interesting discussion
13:06 < stickster> 15 sec
13:06 < EvilBob> none here
13:06 < stickster> 10
13:06 < couf> nope
13:06 < stickster> 5
13:06 < stickster> 4
13:06 < stickster> 3
13:06 < jmbuser> no
13:06 < stickster> 2
13:06 < stickster> 1
13:06 < stickster> </meeting>
--
Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937
BD11 3717
Fedora Project: http://pfrields.fed
orapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster  #fedora-docs,
#fedora-devel, #fredlug
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