HTML log here:
http://fedoraproject.
org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCL
og20080423
11:08 < quaid> <meeting>
11:08 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to:
FDSCo mtg - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsPro
ject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda
11:08 < quaid> going to go through a quick rundown
11:08 < quaid> even though not sure anyone is here
11:09 * quaid waits exactly one minute to 18:10.20
11:09 -!- jsmith [n=jsmith 72.21.36.138] has joined
#fedora-meeting
11:09 * jsmith is here... at least in theory
11:09 < quaid> word
11:09 < jsmith> I'm juggling projects at the moment
11:09 < quaid> a few more seconds
11:10 * quaid is a juggle
11:12 -!- J5_ [n=quinticenat/redhat/x-e216423445de749b] has joined
#fedora-meeting
11:13 * quaid back from network drop, sry
11:13 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to:
FDSCo mtg - Installation Guide (IG)
11:14 < quaid> stickster has been doing some work on
this
11:14 < quaid> all other work and EvilBob are MIA at
this point
11:15 < quaid> going to send a request today to the
list to get all hands on the IG and the UG from now
11:15 < quaid> anyone with anything else?
11:15 * quaid waits 30 seconds
11:15 < Southern_Gentlem> quaid i will get Evilbob on
the IG this week
11:16 < quaid> Southern_Gentlem: thx; the concern is
we don't know what was or was not done by his IG writing
team
11:16 < quaid> so we're likely to duplicate or
overcome that work
11:16 < quaid> which was, btw, why I argued for *all*
that work to happen in regular irc, mailing list, and CVS
11:17 < quaid> but, good lord, yes, all hands are
needed
11:17 * quaid prepares to move on topic-wise ...
11:17 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to:
FDSCo mtg - Update on other active content work
11:18 < quaid> User Guide -- finishing for F9, keep
momentum going
11:18 < quaid> UG -- F8 finish, has to be put behind
IG work now
11:18 < quaid> SMG -- couf passed on the XML work, now
we need to get that bad boy published
11:19 * quaid ponders if jsmith wants to learn that
particular trivia
11:19 < quaid> Sec G - sparks has been working on it,
post F9 draft target
11:19 < quaid> AG - post f9 release draft target
11:20 < quaid> release notes -- were going to do some
updates from the wiki to the POT but none of us followed
through, we need to decide quickly if we are going to mess
with that or not
11:20 < jsmith> quaid: Yeah, couf told me he gave me
an A+ on it... I'm still in shock
11:20 < quaid> -- above discussion on list?
11:20 < jsmith> Yeah, push it to the list
11:20 < quaid> jsmith: eh, if you know DocBook it's
not hard of a task
11:20 < quaid> ok, any more on that ol' content what
is active?
11:21 < jsmith> Not that I can think of...
11:21 < jsmith> What exactly is involved in publishing
the SMG? It got branched for the PackageKit update, right?
11:22 < jsmith> Did the PackageKit updates ever get
put into DocBook?
11:22 < Southern_Gentlem> define SMG please
11:23 < Southern_Gentlem> IG is install guide UG is
User Guide
11:23 < jsmith> SGM is the Software Management Guide
11:23 < Southern_Gentlem> ty and AG is?
11:23 < quaid> Admin GUide
11:23 < jsmith> (formerly the yum-software-management
guide)
11:23 < quaid> sry for TLA fever
11:24 < quaid> jsmith: most likely no on the PK
changes
11:24 < quaid> jsmith: publishing is ...
11:24 * quaid gets URL
11:24 -!- LetoT1 [n=paulbofh.xelerance.com] has
joined #fedora-meeting
11:25 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504krfedora/JSchmitt] has joined
#fedora-meeting
11:25 < quaid> jsmith: anyway, I can show you after
the meeting; that is, discuss it later out of the meeting
11:26 < jsmith> Fair enough
11:26 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to:
FDSCo mtg -- AOB
11:26 < jsmith> I don't know what else to discuss
without the other folks here
11:26 < quaid> in that we are almost done
11:26 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to:
FDSCo mtg -- All Other Business (AOB)
11:26 < quaid> 'zactly
11:26 < quaid>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EditingFedoraRedhatCom
11:26 < quaid> that's the evil that we do to get
published still
11:26 < quaid> it's actually a bit like the other
websites
11:27 < quaid> we check in changes and tag them LIVE
11:27 -!- DanseMakabre [i=patbobo.ds5.agh.edu.pl] has
joined #fedora-meeting
11:27 < quaid> it's all PHP includes to build the
pages, with the rendering done and pushed as static HTML
11:27 -!- SmootherFrOgZ [n=Smootherlinagoraberri.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed
the connection]
11:28 < jsmith> Gotcha
11:28 < quaid> ok, with nothing more ...
11:28 * jsmith votes for ending the meeting
11:28 -!- mether_ [n=asknat/redhat-in/x-2972959aedb2ba42] has quit
["Ex-Chat"]
11:28 < quaid> it is so
11:29 < quaid> 5
11:29 < Southern_Gentlem> +1
11:29 < quaid> 4
11:29 < quaid> 3
11:29 < quaid> 2
11:29 < quaid> 1
11:29 < quaid> </meeting>
11:29 * quaid syncs irclogs and posts this easy one
11:29 < jsmith> So let it be written, so let it be
done!
11:29 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to:
Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for
their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged
| For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora |
See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMe
etingChannel for meeting schedule
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quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
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["Konversation terminated!"]
11:32 -!- mether [n=askfedora/mether] has joined #fedora-meeting
11:41 -!- Sparks [n=sparksfedora/Sparks] has joined
#fedora-meeting
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11:51 < quaid> I would like to announce to this
channel
11:51 < quaid> that I am just a bit stupid
11:51 < quaid> and we will have the actual FDSCo
meeting at the *scheduled* time, which is in 10 minutes
11:51 < quaid> if no one new shows up, then we'll just
accept the work done previously
11:53 < jsmith> quaid: Consider that a "George
Bush"-style preemptive meeting
11:54 -!- fbijlsma [n=fbijlsmapd907c9d7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined
#fedora-meeting
11:57 < Sparks> quaid: I'm here! I'm here!
11:57 < quaid> jsmith: "I meant to do that"
11:57 < quaid> it was a test
11:57 < quaid> to see if you were awake
11:58 < jsmith> "Had this been an actual meeting,
this tone would have been followed by emergency
instructions"
11:58 < Sparks> Hey, I can do that in my sleep
11:58 < Sparks>
11:58 < Sparks> jsmith: HAHAHA
11:58 * jsmith can fix servers in his sleep... which is
really scary
11:58 < Sparks> I think I've been asleep while
attempting to fix servers... Just ask my boss.
11:58 < jsmith> Back when I was managing umpteen
thousand servers, I could wake up, walk downstairs, log into
the VPN, fix a server, go back to bed, and not remember in
the morning
11:59 < jsmith> My wife would ask "Why did the
pager go off last night?" and I'd be like "What
are you talking about?"
11:59 < jsmith> But sure enough, I fixed the server
and even sent out an email explaining what I fixed
11:59 < jsmith> Go figure...
11:59 < quaid> Sleepadmin
11:59 < Sparks> Yik4ed
11:59 < quaid> jsmith: freaking spooky!
11:59 < Sparks> uh... Yikes
12:00 < jsmith> quaid: Apparently I could do the same
with changing baby diapers as well...
12:00 < quaid> oh, that one I understand
12:00 < jsmith> Just watch out... I might wake up and
convert wiki to docbook in the middle of the night 
12:01 < quaid> I used to have such a hard time coming
out of a dream
12:01 < quaid> I remember once changing a diaper while
dreaming I was wrestling with a rogue operating system
12:01 < quaid> ok, let's do it ... again
12:01 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to:
FDSCo mtg redux -- roll call
12:01 < quaid> the trick is ...
12:01 < quaid> if it's the same people, we can just
ratify the last hour
12:02 < quaid> the irclog from before is in f-docs-l
12:02 < Sparks> EricChristensen
12:02 < jsmith> JaredSmith
12:02 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-do
cs-list/2008-April/msg00090.html
12:02 < quaid> KarstenWade semi-here
12:02 < quaid> ok, so ...
12:03 < quaid> Sparks: do you see anything in that
irclog you have a question about, comment on, etc.?
12:03 * Sparks reads the previous meeting's notes
12:03 < jsmith> Sparks: Can you also bring us up to
speed on the current status of the SMG?
12:04 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to:
FDSCo mtg redux -- discuss !meeting log, wait for people to
show up a bit late until 1910
12:04 < quaid> jsmith: ah, thx
12:04 < quaid> specifically, the PackageKit changes,
do we need to get those into XML?
12:04 < Sparks> Um, I think I can talk on the SMG and
the CryptoGuide
12:04 < jsmith> Cool.
12:05 * Sparks pulls up RH Bugzilla to pull some notes
12:05 < Sparks> Okay, I'm ready whenever the firing
squad assembles
12:06 < jsmith> Fire!
12:06 < quaid> oh, go ahead
12:06 < Sparks> Okay...
12:06 < quaid> we're just going to make sure we don't
close too soon, but with things to discuss
12:06 < Sparks> SMG. The only thing left was to add
the PackageKit documentation which I had started but hadn't
gotten enough info to finish.
12:07 < Sparks> RahulSundaram volunteered to finish up
the documentation and thus ticket # 430765 was assigned to
him.
12:07 < Sparks> That was on 02Apr.
12:08 < Sparks> I haven't heard anything else on the
SMG since.
12:08 < quaid> I don't recall ...
12:08 * quaid checks commit stream
12:08 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedo
ra-relnotes-content/2008-April/thread.html
12:09 < quaid> it's
Docs/Drafts/SoftwareManagementGuide?
12:09 < quaid> oh, darn
12:09 < quaid> sorry, that list doesn't watch
Docs/Drafts/
12:09 < Sparks> Looking at what little I wrote for
PackageKit it doesn't look like it has been touched.
12:09 < quaid> ok
12:10 < Sparks> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/D
rafts/SoftwareManagementGuide/PackageKit
12:10 < quaid> so the issue is we need someone with
expertise?
12:10 < quaid> or just access to the application?
12:10 < Sparks> Both
12:10 < Sparks> I have access to the application but
with it still being developed it is hard to pin down the
documentation.
12:11 < jsmith> Well, what's going into F9 should be
pretty much frozen, right?
12:11 < Sparks> I think Rahul was supposed to write
something for the Release Notes?
12:11 < quaid> well, what we see in Preview is going
to be it
12:11 < jsmith> Can't we / shouldn't we document
what's there?
12:11 < quaid> we can use that
12:12 < quaid> but
12:12 < quaid> the relnotes are just an overview
12:12 < quaid> and point to the SMG as canonical
12:12 < jsmith> Right...
12:12 < quaid> htt
p://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PackageKit
12:13 < quaid> under Documentation
12:13 < quaid> http://www.pack
agekit.org/pk-faq.html
12:13 < Sparks> The SMG as written today (and what I
*THINK* made it into CVS) doesn't not address PackageKit but
does address everything else.
12:13 < quaid> that's more of a reference, no how-to
there
12:14 < Sparks> quaid: How much time do we have to
develop this?
12:14 < quaid> 11 May?
12:14 < quaid> at the latest
12:14 < quaid> so we have time to give a final
pre-publication once-over
12:15 < Sparks> Okay, I can try to write something up
this week so that jsmith and you can look over it.
12:15 < quaid> ok, thanks!
12:15 < jsmith> w00t!
12:15 < Sparks> Did I just say that?
12:16 < quaid> yes, you did
12:16 < Sparks> Dang it! I hate when I do that.
12:16 < quaid> doing an update of the xML from the
wiki by hand should be trivial
12:16 < quaid> Sparks: take it to the list, get some
additional help
12:16 < quaid> someone may know of existing something
or somesuch
12:17 * Sparks never gets help from the list because he
always takes the grunt jobs.
12:17 < quaid> true
12:17 < Sparks> :_)
12:17 < quaid> but always worth the traffic
12:17 < Sparks> True
12:18 -!- J5_ [n=quinticenat/redhat/x-e216423445de749b] has quit
["Ex-Chat"]
12:19 -!- linuxlala [n=linuxlal122.162.116.130] has quit
["Leaving"]
12:19 < Sparks> Okay, that's all I got on SMG. I can
speak on the CryptoGuide
12:21 < quaid> ok
12:21 < quaid> aka ...
12:21 < quaid> Security Guide
12:22 < quaid> have you laid out a new structure to
work from?
12:22 * quaid goes to look
12:22 < Sparks> So... It was the CryptoGuide (which I
personally think is a cool name) but got changed to the
Privacy and Encryption Guide and is now called the Security
Guide.
12:22 < Sparks> It starts at http://
fedoraproject.org/wiki/Security_Guide/ for the
"approved and released" side.
12:23 < Sparks> But the meat and potatoes are actually
at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/CryptoGuide
12:24 < Sparks> Last weekend I churned some letters
together and got the introduction rewritten, established a
General Principles of Security chapter, and also wrote up
how to do a secure installation.
12:25 < Sparks> Next is to do an overview of
Encryption and then go into the different forms
(data-at-rest, data-in-motion, etc).
12:25 < quaid> what is the Fedora Sec team interested
in seeing?
12:25 < Sparks> a guide
12:25 < Sparks>
12:25 < quaid> and how do you feel about the balance
of Fedora-specific to general sec info?
12:26 < Sparks> Actually, they want to see the
encryption stuff written up so it is easily read and...
12:26 < Sparks> they wanted to see general things to
do when setting up Fedora and using Fedora.
12:26 < quaid> right, if there is nothing appropriate
that makes sense of it for people, no reason not to write it
ourselves.
12:26 -!- nphilipp [n=nilsdslb-088-067-058-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit
["Leaving"]
12:27 < Sparks> quaid: I think I have written
everything to be as specific to Fedora as possible.
12:27 -!- GeroldKa [n=GeroldKafedora/geroldka] has joined
#fedora-meeting
12:27 < quaid> Sparks: no worries, as long as you are
having fun
12:28 < quaid> Sparks: another group we can put you in
contact with, for content sources, ideas, and consumption,
should be the Free IPA and Dogtag projects
12:28 < Sparks> I haven't completely fleshed out
everything that I want to put into the doc but I'd like to
get Chapters 1 through 3 approved and moved over to the
public side before F9 being that people are being asked to
go there for information on the Encryption.
12:28 < quaid> +1
12:28 < Sparks> quaid: I'm definately having fun with
this one.
12:28 < jsmith> +1
12:28 < quaid> iirc, that content is pretty well
vetted already, right?
12:28 < quaid> Ch 1 .. 3
12:29 < Sparks> Yeah, I want to talk about PKI (aka
Dog Tag) in there too.
12:29 < quaid> yeah, those guys surely want some help
with that content
12:29 < quaid> but also ..
12:29 < Sparks> The information is well vetted... BUT
I want someone to look over it to 1) sanity check me, 2)
grammar check me, and 3) make sure what I'm saying is what
Fedora wants me to say.
12:30 * quaid looks
12:30 < quaid> Sparks: yeah, technical edit was my
primary concern there
12:30 * Sparks drools over the thought of the Dog Tag
project.
12:30 < quaid> you know there are existing docs,
right?
12:30 < quaid> the question is, as usual, do we get
access to them ...
12:30 < Sparks> What existing docs are you speaking
of?
12:31 < quaid> Cert System docs
12:31 < Sparks> Hmmm
12:31 < quaid> + Directory Server docs
12:31 < quaid> not all relevant, but some
12:31 < quaid> http:
//www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/cert-system/
12:31 < quaid> http:/
/www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/dir-server/
12:32 < Sparks> Hmmm... I'll have to look at those
further.
12:32 * quaid was once-upon-a-time lead writer for that,
when we started the conversion of the 3000+ pages from
FrameMaker to HTML to XML
12:32 < Sparks>
12:33 < Sparks> Where does F8/F9 fall in with RHEL?
Is it closer to RHEL 5 than RHEL 4?
12:33 < quaid> yeah, it may not be relevant, who
knows?
12:33 < quaid> well, sure, it's closer
12:33 < quaid> quite a bit
12:33 < quaid> but yeah, it's a hard thing to
reference old RHEL content, which we have done on-and-off
over the years
12:34 < Sparks> Okay. That's good to know as most of
the documentation that I'm referencing is designed for RHEL
5.
12:34 < quaid> right
12:34 < Sparks> True
12:34 < jsmith> brb
12:34 < Sparks> RH hasn't released a Security Guide
for 5 yet.
12:36 < quaid> I think that content was rolled in to
the Deployment Guide
12:36 < Sparks> So with that said, I think I'll be
cleaning up the Encryption stuff later this week so it can
go out the door.
12:36 < quaid> sweet
12:37 < Sparks> quaid: What's the possibility of
rolling out a secure version of Fedora in the future?
12:37 * quaid thought that stuff was secure
12:37 < quaid> Sparks: make a spin? or something
different?
12:37 < Sparks> quaid: I'm guessing we'd probably take
more heat than on the SELinux debate.
12:38 < quaid> Sparks: how so?
12:38 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to:
FDSCo mtg -- All Other Business (AOB)
12:38 < Sparks> Well... There are a lot of things
that could/should be done by the user to prevent malicious
code or attackers from hacking you. TCPWrappers, setting up
human groups and using sudo, etc
12:39 -!- fcrippa [n=fcrippa83.225.29.232] has joined
#fedora-meeting
12:39 < Sparks> Locking down partitions...
12:39 < quaid> and rather than telling them how, make
a version that does it automatically
12:39 < Sparks> I could go on and on... I'm only in
chapter 2 of the DoD guide I'm using to harden three Fedora
boxes right now and I was surprised at how much stuff there
is.
12:39 < quaid> it sounds like a spin, to me
12:39 < Sparks> Well, I'd say do both.
12:40 < quaid> bunch of %post scripts?
12:40 < quaid> well, ok, see, here is where this is on
topic for Docs
12:40 < quaid> we've historically
12:40 < quaid> had a narrow vision and mission
12:40 < quaid> but have widened over time
12:40 < quaid> and like the rest of Fedora Project
proper
12:40 < quaid> we can expand to be upstream of
content
12:40 < quaid> and do big guides, etc.
12:41 < Sparks> Hmmm.... The DoD has a script that
runs and tells you what is wrong with your system but I
haven't seen one that will fix everything for you because
you don't know what setting will break an existing system.
12:41 * quaid wonders where bastion-linux is these days
12:41 * Sparks sees this as a possible big guide
12:42 < quaid> Sparks: well, look at the content in
the RHEL 5 Deployment Guide, see what you would re-use in
such a Security Guide if oyu had it
12:43 < Sparks> Maybe it is just me but I read my logs
every morning to see what's been going on. I don't know if
most people do that or not but if they do then they are
probably a little concernes with security.
12:43 * Sparks looks for the Deployment guide.
12:43 < quaid> start at rh.com/docs
12:43 < Sparks> Got it
12:43 < quaid> logwatch++ too
12:43 < Sparks>
12:44 * quaid meant Bastille Linux but had a brain frack
12:44 -!- smooge [n=smoogecanopus.unm.edu] has quit
["-ENOCAFFEINE"]
12:45 < Southern_Gentlem> most admins consider
tcpwrappers as a last resort
12:45 < Sparks> But it is the dumb things, like not
using IPv6 but having it running, that allow an attacker to
gain access to the system because of the default settings.
12:45 < Southern_Gentlem> Sparks, explain that
12:45 < quaid> Sparks: the IPv6 setting sounds like a
bug or an f-devel-l discussion
12:46 < Southern_Gentlem> Sparks, if there network
doesnt support ip6 how are they at risk
12:47 < Sparks> The IPv6 thing is *unix wide
12:47 < Southern_Gentlem> no not all networks support
ipv6
12:47 < Sparks> Because IPv6 allows for
autoconfiguration and allows an attack vector to the
networking stack.
12:48 < Sparks> true, however if you are using newer
equipment (like a new switch) you have an attack vector
because a lot of network switches will pass it along with
the IPv4 packet.
12:49 < Southern_Gentlem> but i am talking on old
switches which are still out there in force
12:49 < Sparks> You have a mitigating factor if your
WAN connection doesn't support IPv6. This wouldn't be so
much of a problem for a home user.
12:49 < Southern_Gentlem> guess what? thats your main
audience in fedora
12:49 < Sparks> But if Fedora was deployed in a larger
setting then you could have a problem.
12:50 < Sparks> guess what, you don't know where
Fedora is and what it is being used for.
12:50 < Sparks> I'm not saying that everyone should
follow everything in the book, I'm saying that they should
know where the information is and know how to use the
information if they deem it necessary to secure their box.
12:51 < Sparks> I know of places where Fedora is used
in a more... enterprise setting.
12:52 < Sparks> Not a problem. I talked with the
sysadmin and made sure he knew what docs he needed to
consult so he could secure his system.
12:53 < Sparks> Anyway, the IPv6 thing was only an
example. There are lots of settings for passwords and using
AIDE and securing your SSH that would be useful to most
users, IMO.
12:55 < quaid> ok, I think we have wandered afar
enough
12:55 * quaid is back from a distraction
12:56 < quaid> I'll trim back a bit and send out both
logs asap
12:56 < quaid> anything else?
12:56 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504krp54B11960.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined
#fedora-meeting
12:56 -!- fbijlsma [n=fbijlsmapd907c9d7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit
["Leaving"]
12:56 < Sparks> Nothing here
12:56 -!- fbijlsma [n=fbijlsmapd907c9d7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined
#fedora-meeting
12:57 < Sparks> Where did jsmith go?
12:57 < quaid> ok
12:57 < quaid> </meeting>
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