RE: INFO

Since INFO is mid-dialog, the endpoints can signal what they
support. It does not need to be known a priori

Regards,
Jeroen

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Eric Burger" <eburgerbea.com>
Aan: "Peili Xu" <xupeilihuawei.com>
CC: "sip" <sipietf.org>
Verzonden: 31-8-07 00:03
Onderwerp: Re: [Sip] INFO

Saying, "OK for interworking" does not really say
anything.  If I come up
with a really broken method for interworking, saying that it
is for
interworking does not make it correct.

The problem is, how do the endpoints know they will be able
to communicate?
For the ISUP/Q.sig/DPNSS/mumble case, the endpoints know
they will be able
to interoperate because they know a'priori: they are
configured to work.
However, this means that the devices must be in the same
administrative
domain and configured properly.

Said in a different manner, INFO works fine for
non-inter-network use.  It
would be hard for the IETF to say, "Here is a non-IETF
use.  We will not use
it.  You cannot use it with anyone else.  You cannot use it
between
manufacturers, unless you get them to agree to this
use."  That is a bit
more of what we call the toxic waste warning that
accompanies 3GPP
specifications...


On 8/27/07 8:35 AM, "Peili Xu" <xupeilihuawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Eric,
> 
> Several cases I encounter to use INFO is for
interworking with PSTN signaling,
> or simulate PSTN services at SIP entities such as SIP
UA or SIP GW,
> which require mid-dialog information change.
> 



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*How* do they signal what they support?  In an INFO? 
<jk> 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeroen van Bemmel [mailto:jbemmelzonnet.nl] 
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:29 AM
To: Eric Burger; Peili Xu
Cc: sip
Subject: RE: [Sip] INFO

Since INFO is mid-dialog, the endpoints can signal what they
support. It
does not need to be known a priori

Regards,
Jeroen

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Eric Burger" <eburgerbea.com>
Aan: "Peili Xu" <xupeilihuawei.com>
CC: "sip" <sipietf.org>
Verzonden: 31-8-07 00:03
Onderwerp: Re: [Sip] INFO

Saying, "OK for interworking" does not really say
anything.  If I come
up with a really broken method for interworking, saying that
it is for
interworking does not make it correct.

The problem is, how do the endpoints know they will be able
to
communicate?
For the ISUP/Q.sig/DPNSS/mumble case, the endpoints know
they will be
able to interoperate because they know a'priori: they are
configured to
work.
However, this means that the devices must be in the same
administrative
domain and configured properly.

Said in a different manner, INFO works fine for
non-inter-network use.
It would be hard for the IETF to say, "Here is a
non-IETF use.  We will
not use it.  You cannot use it with anyone else.  You cannot
use it
between manufacturers, unless you get them to agree to this
use."  That
is a bit more of what we call the toxic waste warning that
accompanies
3GPP specifications...


On 8/27/07 8:35 AM, "Peili Xu" <xupeilihuawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Eric,
> 
> Several cases I encounter to use INFO is for
interworking with PSTN 
> signaling, or simulate PSTN services at SIP entities
such as SIP UA or

> SIP GW, which require mid-dialog information change.
> 


Notice:  This email message, together with any attachments,
may contain information  of  BEA Systems,  Inc.,  its
subsidiaries  and  affiliated entities,  that may be
confidential,  proprietary,  copyrighted  and/or legally
privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity named in this message. If you are not
the intended recipient, and have received this message in
error, please immediately return this by email and then
delete it.


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I think he's saying it's something that could be resolved
by
standardization. (maybe)

At least the way I read your draft, the draft makes
arguments against INFO
of two different types, as if they were of similar weight
and impact - but
that's not really the case.  There is one set of problems
with INFO that
exist because of architectural issues, which are probably
not fixable, and
are generally damning.  There is a separate set which are
problems merely
because no standard exists for how to address them, but they
could be
resolved.  This latter type is not really a "Why INFO
is bad in general", as
much as a "what the current problems are with INFO that
we should fix if we
want to keep using INFO".

-hadriel

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Burger [mailto:eburgerbea.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:33 AM
> To: Jeroen van Bemmel; Peili Xu
> Cc: sip
> Subject: RE: [Sip] INFO
> 
> *How* do they signal what they support?  In an INFO? 
<jk>
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeroen van Bemmel [mailto:jbemmelzonnet.nl]
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:29 AM
> To: Eric Burger; Peili Xu
> Cc: sip
> Subject: RE: [Sip] INFO
> 
> Since INFO is mid-dialog, the endpoints can signal what
they support. It
> does not need to be known a priori
> 
> Regards,
> Jeroen
> 
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> Van: "Eric Burger" <eburgerbea.com>
> Aan: "Peili Xu" <xupeilihuawei.com>
> CC: "sip" <sipietf.org>
> Verzonden: 31-8-07 00:03
> Onderwerp: Re: [Sip] INFO
> 
> Saying, "OK for interworking" does not really
say anything.  If I come
> up with a really broken method for interworking, saying
that it is for
> interworking does not make it correct.
> 
> The problem is, how do the endpoints know they will be
able to
> communicate?
> For the ISUP/Q.sig/DPNSS/mumble case, the endpoints
know they will be
> able to interoperate because they know a'priori: they
are configured to
> work.
> However, this means that the devices must be in the
same administrative
> domain and configured properly.
> 
> Said in a different manner, INFO works fine for
non-inter-network use.
> It would be hard for the IETF to say, "Here is a
non-IETF use.  We will
> not use it.  You cannot use it with anyone else.  You
cannot use it
> between manufacturers, unless you get them to agree to
this use."  That
> is a bit more of what we call the toxic waste warning
that accompanies
> 3GPP specifications...
> 
> 
> On 8/27/07 8:35 AM, "Peili Xu"
<xupeilihuawei.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Eric,
> >
> > Several cases I encounter to use INFO is for
interworking with PSTN
> > signaling, or simulate PSTN services at SIP
entities such as SIP UA or
> 
> > SIP GW, which require mid-dialog information
change.
> >
> 
> 
> Notice:  This email message, together with any
attachments, may contain
> information  of  BEA Systems,  Inc.,  its subsidiaries 
and  affiliated
> entities,  that may be confidential,  proprietary, 
copyrighted  and/or
> legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use
of the individual
> or entity named in this message. If you are not the
intended recipient,
> and have received this message in error, please
immediately return this by
> email and then delete it.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Sip mailing list  https://ww
w1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP
Protocol
> Use sip-implementorscs.columbia.edu for
questions on current sip
> Use sippingietf.org for new developments on the
application of sip



_______________________________________________
Sip mailing list  https://ww
w1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementorscs.columbia.edu for questions on current
sip
Use sippingietf.org for new developments on the application of
sip

Hi,

I agree with Hadriel. Just because we may have to work on
something
("what are the current problems"), e.g. ragarding
indication of support,
it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

Regards,

Christer

>I think he's saying it's something that could be
resolved by 
>standardization. (maybe)
> 
>At least the way I read your draft, the draft makes
arguments 
>against INFO of two different types, as if they were of

>similar weight and impact - but that's not really the
case.  
>There is one set of problems with INFO that exist
because of 
>architectural issues, which are probably not fixable,
and are 
>generally damning.  There is a separate set which are 
>problems merely because no standard exists for how to
address 
>them, but they could be resolved.  This latter type is
not 
>really a "Why INFO is bad in general", as much
as a "what the 
>current problems are with INFO that we should fix if we
want 
>to keep using INFO".
> 
> -hadriel
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Eric Burger [mailto:eburgerbea.com]
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:33 AM
> > To: Jeroen van Bemmel; Peili Xu
> > Cc: sip
> > Subject: RE: [Sip] INFO
> > 
> > *How* do they signal what they support?  In an
INFO?  <jk>
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeroen van Bemmel [mailto:jbemmelzonnet.nl]
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:29 AM
> > To: Eric Burger; Peili Xu
> > Cc: sip
> > Subject: RE: [Sip] INFO
> > 
> > Since INFO is mid-dialog, the endpoints can signal
what 
> they support. 
> > It does not need to be known a priori
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Jeroen
> > 
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> > Van: "Eric Burger" <eburgerbea.com>
> > Aan: "Peili Xu" <xupeilihuawei.com>
> > CC: "sip" <sipietf.org>
> > Verzonden: 31-8-07 00:03
> > Onderwerp: Re: [Sip] INFO
> > 
> > Saying, "OK for interworking" does not
really say anything. 
>  If I come 
> > up with a really broken method for interworking,
saying 
> that it is for 
> > interworking does not make it correct.
> > 
> > The problem is, how do the endpoints know they
will be able to 
> > communicate?
> > For the ISUP/Q.sig/DPNSS/mumble case, the
endpoints know 
> they will be 
> > able to interoperate because they know a'priori:
they are 
> configured 
> > to work.
> > However, this means that the devices must be in
the same 
> > administrative domain and configured properly.
> > 
> > Said in a different manner, INFO works fine for 
> non-inter-network use.
> > It would be hard for the IETF to say, "Here
is a non-IETF use.  We 
> > will not use it.  You cannot use it with anyone
else.  You 
> cannot use 
> > it between manufacturers, unless you get them to
agree to 
> this use."  
> > That is a bit more of what we call the toxic waste
warning that 
> > accompanies 3GPP specifications...
> > 
> > 
> > On 8/27/07 8:35 AM, "Peili Xu"
<xupeilihuawei.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi Eric,
> > >
> > > Several cases I encounter to use INFO is for
interworking 
> with PSTN 
> > > signaling, or simulate PSTN services at SIP
entities such 
> as SIP UA 
> > > or
> > 
> > > SIP GW, which require mid-dialog information
change.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > Notice:  This email message, together with any
attachments, may 
> > contain information  of  BEA Systems,  Inc.,  its

> subsidiaries  and  
> > affiliated entities,  that may be confidential, 
proprietary,  
> > copyrighted  and/or legally privileged, and is
intended 
> solely for the 
> > use of the individual or entity named in this
message. If 
> you are not 
> > the intended recipient, and have received this
message in error, 
> > please immediately return this by email and then
delete it.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sip mailing list  https://ww
w1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
> > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP
Protocol Use 
> > sip-implementorscs.columbia.edu for
questions on current sip Use 
> > sippingietf.org for new developments on the
application of sip
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Sip mailing list  https://ww
w1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP
Protocol Use 
> sip-implementorscs.columbia.edu for questions on current
sip 
> Use sippingietf.org for new developments on the
application of sip
> 


_______________________________________________
Sip mailing list  https://ww
w1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementorscs.columbia.edu for questions on current
sip
Use sippingietf.org for new developments on the application of
sip