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List Info
Thread: Chance to defend position that SIP has had poor consumer traction Etc.
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| Chance to defend position that SIP has
had poor consumer traction Etc. |
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2007-12-16 08:35:20 |
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Marketing for the eComm March 2008 conference (see www.eCommMedia.com) is away to drive ahead with the messages which I give them. One of these messages is critical towards SIP. Before the marketing material is finalised, I'd like to first welcome responses. I'd love to copy all the messages but I may run the risk of getting accused of spamming the list so below I've just copied the section that relates to SIP:
"Voice Industry Stagnancy
Telcos still see themselves as masters of communications innovation and the guardians to the creation of new services. Yet 3G, FMC, IPTV, NGN and IMS services are failing in the market place. At the same time consumer attention drifts increasingly towards Internet based applications such as Facebook, MySpace, YouTube, FlickR, SecondLife, World of Warcraft Etc. which are becoming increasingly voice enabled.
Yet within the Internet realms VoIP is still heralded as the communication revolution. But VoIP on it's own is nothing more than digital telephony and it will never be profitable. It has gained little consumer traction and can be announced as dead-on-arrival. SIP the VoIP signaling protocol even after a decade of development has had little consumer reach and the entire notion of a common signaling protocol is now under question. "
Now it would seem stupid to ask people to call their baby ugly. BUT what I do hope for, is that there is enough people with a balanced view who if they feel strongly against this position and can provide clear rationale, then I will have it modified/changed accordingly. Otherwise it will be accepted as true.
Seems fair?
Thanks Lee
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| Re: Chance to defend position that SIP
has had poor consumer traction Etc. |
 
United States |
2007-12-16 10:39:46 |
Lee Dryburgh wrote:
>
> Marketing for the eComm March 2008 conference (see
www.eCommMedia.com) is
> away to drive ahead with the messages which I give
them. One of these
> messages is critical towards SIP. Before the marketing
material is
> finalised, I'd like to first welcome responses. I'd
love to copy all the
> messages but I may run the risk of getting accused of
spamming the list so
> below I've just copied the section that relates to
SIP:
>
> "Voice Industry Stagnancy
> Telcos still see themselves as masters of
communications innovation and
> the
> guardians to the creation of new services. Yet 3G, FMC,
IPTV, NGN and IMS
> services are failing in the market place. At the same
time consumer
> attention drifts increasingly towards Internet based
applications such as
> Facebook, MySpace, YouTube, FlickR, SecondLife, World
of Warcraft Etc.
> which
> are becoming increasingly voice enabled.
>
> Yet within the Internet realms VoIP is still heralded
as the communication
> revolution. But VoIP on it's own is nothing more than
digital telephony
> and
> it will never be profitable. It has gained little
consumer traction and
> can
> be announced as dead-on-arrival. SIP the VoIP signaling
protocol even
> after
> a decade of development has had little consumer reach
and the entire
> notion
> of a common signaling protocol is now under question.
"
>
> Now it would seem stupid to ask people to call their
baby ugly. BUT what I
> do hope for, is that there is enough people with a
balanced view who if
> they
> feel strongly against this position and can provide
clear rationale, then
> I
> will have it modified/changed accordingly. Otherwise it
will be accepted
> as
> true. Seems fair?
>
> Thanks Lee
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sip mailing list https://ww
w1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP
Protocol
> Use sip-implementors cs.columbia.edu for
questions on current sip
> Use sippingietf.org for new developments on the
application of sip
>
SIP is a protocol, not an application. Protocols don't have
any "consumer
traction".
Now within the voice industry if you can tell me a single
large
wireline/wireless telco that hasn't done some work or
planning in replacing
class 4 and later class 5 switching equipment with a SIP/IMS
core, you
probably work in another industry. Same core we will use for
4G in wireless.
>From my experience telco investment cycles have a 5 to
10 year period. All
major telcos have started working towards the change just 2
or 3 years ago.
It will take 2 or 3 more, at least, before we start. Once we
do, it will be
fun. Nobody is planning to deploy voip just because it
sounds cool or
because the "industry analysts" recommend it.
What's more, in the way most
telcos are planning it, it will go mostly unnoticed by
customers. We sell
voice or multimedia communications, not voip.
Facebook might have a lot of consumer traction but it
doesn't generate any
net income. And they don't offer you any service you pay
for. Telcos can
complement facebook while the hype lasts, yes; many are
working on that. BTW
anyone remembers secondlife virtual stores?
Just my $0.02
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Chance-to-defend-position-that-SI
P-has-had-poor-consumer-traction-Etc.-tp14362104p14363324.ht
ml
Sent from the IETF - Sip mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
Sip mailing list https://ww
w1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementorscs.columbia.edu for questions on current
sip
Use sippingietf.org for new developments on the application of
sip
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| RE: Chance to defend position that SIP
has had poor consumertraction Etc. |
|
2007-12-16 17:22:38 |
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Lee,
Sorry, but you have it all wrong and
confused as email from others are also observing.
The half truths are even more confusing.
This list is not the right place to argue your confusion.
Henry
From: Lee Dryburgh [mailto:dryburghlgmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007
8:35 AM
To: IETF SIP List
Subject: [Sip] Chance to defend position
that SIP has had poor consumertraction Etc.
Marketing for the eComm March 2008 conference (see www.eCommMedia.com) is away
to drive ahead with the messages which I give them. One of these messages is
critical towards SIP. Before the marketing material is finalised, I'd like to
first welcome responses. I'd love to copy all the messages but I may run the
risk of getting accused of spamming the list so below I've just copied the
section that relates to SIP:
"Voice Industry Stagnancy
Telcos still see themselves as masters of communications innovation and the
guardians to the creation of new services. Yet 3G, FMC, IPTV, NGN and IMS
services are failing in the market place. At the same time consumer attention
drifts increasingly towards Internet based applications such as Facebook,
MySpace, YouTube, FlickR, SecondLife, World of Warcraft Etc. which are becoming
increasingly voice enabled.
Yet within the Internet realms VoIP is still heralded as the communication
revolution. But VoIP on it's own is nothing more than digital telephony and it
will never be profitable. It has gained little consumer traction and can be
announced as dead-on-arrival. SIP the VoIP signaling protocol even after a
decade of development has had little consumer reach and the entire notion of a
common signaling protocol is now under question. "
Now it would seem stupid to ask people to call their baby ugly. BUT what I do
hope for, is that there is enough people with a balanced view who if they feel
strongly against this position and can provide clear rationale, then I will
have it modified/changed accordingly. Otherwise it will be accepted as true.
Seems fair?
Thanks Lee
|
| Re: Chance to defend position that SIP
has had poor consumer traction Etc. |
|
2007-12-16 18:20:27 |
|
SIP is a protocol, not an application. Protocols don't have any "consumer
traction".
Ari - firstly thanks for you response.
This is just semantics. Lets rephrase which keeps the line the same - there has been a lack of consumer traction with applications which use SIP.
Now within the voice industry if you can tell me a single large
wireline/wireless telco that hasn't done some work or planning in replacing
class 4 and later class 5 switching equipment with a SIP/IMS core, you
probably work in another industry. Same core we will use for 4G in wireless. I'm aware of the plans and it seems to be getting a bit long in the tooth now; the last operator I did some consulting work for (Hutchinson 3G) evaluated packet based video (over the air interface) and decided to go circuit switched. At a greenfield 3G deployment (Orange) I watched in amazement that analogue signalling links (V35 based SS7) were put in place! My impression is that there is a large difference between any action on the ground and Powerpoint slides.
But really this bypasses more fundamental points. The first question is whether any investment directly relates to any significant ROI? Customer behaviour is markedly different to the environment into which SIP was originally envisaged; is voice not pass
é now? Voice as a standalone offering is not going to be profitable long term. The profits are to be chased in the ways into which voice can be combined into business processes, social networking Etc. (I really can't go into this here - more combinations are listed on the
eCommMedia.com about page). A dark cloud is appearing over SIP/IMS in terms of being the technology underpinning such combinations. For IMS see:
IMS: http://www.ss7.net/ss7-wiki/index.php/Ims-failure
>From my experience telco investment cycles have a 5 to 10 year period. All
major telcos have started working towards the change just 2 or 3 years ago.
It will take 2 or 3 more, at least, before we start. Once we do, it will be
fun. Nobody is planning to deploy voip just because it sounds cool or
because the "industry analysts" recommend it. What's more, in the way most
telcos are planning it, it will go mostly unnoticed by customers. We sell
voice or multimedia communications, not voip.
As said voice is dead as a standalone product long term. It needs to be looked at as an adjunct to ecommerce, social networking etc. Besides it is p
assé, the kids are instant messaging given the chance. T-Mobile (States) where I did some work recently told me that if they offer a data plan with no voice, the teenage market virtually only takes it and runs IM. Talking of which I don't even see SIMPLE playing in the IM field so late in the day. The kids are Twittering, Beboing and IMing - voice is rare for them (tweenagers).
The direction of SIP is voice centric. Voice as a discrete service is dead long term in terms of profit (and high application use).
When you say multimedia communications, operators can not name these. And there is no way they can compete in this direction with the innovation ecology of the Internet.
Facebook might have a lot of consumer traction but it doesn't generate any
net income. And they don't offer you any service you pay for. Telcos can
complement facebook while the hype lasts, yes; many are working on that. BTW
anyone remembers secondlife virtual stores?
Facebook is still in the stage that Google was in, pre-AdSense and pre-IPO.
Just my $0.02
As indicated before I am not after upsetting folks. I'm interested in a great conference; my understanding at this point is that telephones and main stream media are being displaced. If I imagine how long role outs etc. take and note the changes in consumer behaviour since the advent of broadband and project forwards, it is hard to see SIP lining up with the market. It reminds me that in 1999 people started coming to SS7 training classes asking what is the point in learning SIP as it will replace SS7 within a few years. Last year I did more SS7 training than any other year and AFAIK SS7 is still used in 99% of networks. And if you want to do billable VoIP besides voice being passe long term, then every company I have dealt with uses
H.323 quite simply because it integrates with existing billing systems (those setup for SS7). Strangely enough there is no money in free/low-cost VoIP and the appeal of such an offering decreases over time as people wish to drive a more "fused" application experience.
Regards
Lee
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| Re: Chance to defend position that SIP
has had poor consumertraction Etc. |
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2007-12-16 18:33:07 |
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Henry to make such affirmative statements is rather lofty of you.
Having worked for most telecom vendors and many operators, in 30 countries, exclusively in the realms of signalling, it is rather staggering that you retort "confused" and leave it at that. That signalling work includes first NGN trials and 3G deployments.
The "others" you refer to is "other" and I've just replied to that.
As said I asked for a balanced view as far as possible and simply hitting reply, typing "confused"/"half-truth" is far from balanced.
Regards
Lee
On 16/12/2007, Henry Sinnreich < hsinnreiadobe.com">hsinnreiadobe.com> wrote:
Lee,
Sorry, but you have it all wrong and
confused as email from others are also observing.
The half truths are even more confusing.
This list is not the right place to argue your confusion.
Henry
From: Lee Dryburgh [mailto:
dryburghlgmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dryburghlgmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007
8:35 AM
To: IETF SIP List
Subject: [Sip] Chance to defend position
that SIP has had poor consumertraction Etc.
Marketing for the eComm March 2008 conference (see
www.eCommMedia.com) is away
to drive ahead with the messages which I give them. One of these messages is
critical towards SIP. Before the marketing material is finalised, I'd like to
first welcome responses. I'd love to copy all the messages but I may run the
risk of getting accused of spamming the list so below I've just copied the
section that relates to SIP:
"Voice Industry Stagnancy
Telcos still see themselves as masters of communications innovation and the
guardians to the creation of new services. Yet 3G, FMC, IPTV, NGN and IMS
services are failing in the market place. At the same time consumer attention
drifts increasingly towards Internet based applications such as Facebook,
MySpace, YouTube, FlickR, SecondLife, World of Warcraft Etc. which are becoming
increasingly voice enabled.
Yet within the Internet realms VoIP is still heralded as the communication
revolution. But VoIP on it's own is nothing more than digital telephony and it
will never be profitable. It has gained little consumer traction and can be
announced as dead-on-arrival. SIP the VoIP signaling protocol even after a
decade of development has had little consumer reach and the entire notion of a
common signaling protocol is now under question. "
Now it would seem stupid to ask people to call their baby ugly. BUT what I do
hope for, is that there is enough people with a balanced view who if they feel
strongly against this position and can provide clear rationale, then I will
have it modified/changed accordingly. Otherwise it will be accepted as true.
Seems fair?
Thanks Lee
|
| Re: Chance to defend position that SIP
has had poor consumer traction Etc. |
United States |
2007-12-16 19:11:20 |
On Dec 16, 2007, at 8:35 AM, Lee Dryburgh wrote:
> Marketing for the eComm March 2008 conference (see
> www.eCommMedia.com) is away to drive ahead with the
messages which
> I give them. One of these messages is critical towards
SIP. Before
> the marketing material is finalised, I'd like to first
welcome
> responses. I'd love to copy all the messages but I may
run the risk
> of getting accused of spamming the list so below I've
just copied
> the section that relates to SIP:
>
Eek! This is sure to generate a major flamewar!
Please respond directly to Lee, NOT THE LIST! Or, I'll make
you guys
a new list for the flamewar if needed.
--
Dean
_______________________________________________
Sip mailing list https://ww
w1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementorscs.columbia.edu for questions on current
sip
Use sippingietf.org for new developments on the application of
sip
|
|
| Re: Chance to defend position that SIP
has had poor consumer traction Etc. |
|
2007-12-16 19:29:32 |
Sure that is probably best to avoid list flame wars that
could ensure
on this rather large list.
I quickly setup a mailman private mailing list (no public
archiving)
for the purposes of continuing the discussion.
Sign up here:
http://ecommmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/sip_d
iscussion_ecommmedia.com
Once signed up, post using:
sip_discussionecommmedia.com
Now dropping off this list on this issue.
Thanks
Lee
On 17/12/2007, Dean Willis <dean.willissoftarmor.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 16, 2007, at 8:35 AM, Lee Dryburgh wrote:
>
> > Marketing for the eComm March 2008 conference
(see
> > www.eCommMedia.com) is away to drive ahead with
the messages which
> > I give them. One of these messages is critical
towards SIP. Before
> > the marketing material is finalised, I'd like to
first welcome
> > responses. I'd love to copy all the messages but I
may run the risk
> > of getting accused of spamming the list so below
I've just copied
> > the section that relates to SIP:
> >
>
> Eek! This is sure to generate a major flamewar!
>
> Please respond directly to Lee, NOT THE LIST! Or, I'll
make you guys
> a new list for the flamewar if needed.
>
> --
> Dean
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sip mailing list https://ww
w1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP
Protocol
> Use sip-implementorscs.columbia.edu for
questions on current sip
> Use sippingietf.org for new developments on the
application of sip
>
_______________________________________________
Sip mailing list https://ww
w1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementorscs.columbia.edu for questions on current
sip
Use sippingietf.org for new developments on the application of
sip
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