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List Info
Thread: Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy to do the right thing.
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| Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy to
do the right thing. |
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2007-02-24 23:28:34 |
Most of the hardware advocacy I have seen is of the Big
Stick
approach. However the stick the open source community wields
is rather
small. Perhaps a carrot would be more effective.
If I go to apple.com, I can click on "Store" and
instantly get the
option to buy a variety hardware known to work on the Mac.
On the
other hand, If I dig around on the Ubuntu website for a
while I find
that Ubuntu has exactly one hardware partner: Sun, who
aren't really
offering to sell any hardware I want.
Would it be feasible for Ubuntu/Canonical to open a
web-store that
specialises in hardware that "Just works" on
Linux/Ubuntu, and sells
devices with open-source drivers where-ever possible?
While Linux isn't big enough to greatly influence the entire
market,
Ubuntu might have enough buying power to influence some of
the more
minor hardware manufacturers, particularly if working
together with
the other Linux distros. I don't really need open-source
drivers to
all hardware, so long as there is one piece of easily
available
hardware in each class that does what I need and has
open-source
drivers. In any case, the threat "if you don't provide
an open source
driver, I'll buy my card from Ubuntu.com" has much more
financial
power than threatening to pay full price but only use the
text mode of
your video card or whatever.
--
John C. McCabe-Dansted
PhD Student
University of Western Australia
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| Re: Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy
to do the right thing. |
 
South Africa |
2007-02-25 00:51:07 |
> Would it be feasible for Ubuntu/Canonical to open a
web-store that
> specialises in hardware that "Just works" on
Linux/Ubuntu, and sells
> devices with open-source drivers where-ever possible?
Now that's a good idea!
/d
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| Re: Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy
to do the right thing. |
 
United Kingdom |
2007-02-25 06:20:22 |
John McCabe-Dansted wrote:
> Most of the hardware advocacy I have seen is of the Big
Stick
> approach. However the stick the open source community
wields is rather
> small. Perhaps a carrot would be more effective.
>
> If I go to apple.com, I can click on "Store"
and instantly get the
> option to buy a variety hardware known to work on the
Mac. On the
> other hand, If I dig around on the Ubuntu website for a
while I find
> that Ubuntu has exactly one hardware partner: Sun, who
aren't really
> offering to sell any hardware I want.
There are an increasing number of small, local shops selling
computers
with linux - often Ubuntu - pre-installed. See the linux
vendor database:
http://lxe
r.com/module/db/index.php?dbn=14
I would like to see those business get a higher profile on
the Ubuntu
website; like a page to pre-installed Ubuntu boxes, linked
from the
front page.
>
> Would it be feasible for Ubuntu/Canonical to open a
web-store that
> specialises in hardware that "Just works" on
Linux/Ubuntu, and sells
> devices with open-source drivers where-ever possible?
>
I can't speak for Ubuntu/Canonical, but I really doubt it
would be
feasible. It would entail sourcing hardware, setting up
distribution
channels, support systems, and covering the most of the
globe with these
things. Strikes me as a dangerous distraction from the core
task: making
a linux for humans.
I think it is for the likes of Dell to pick up on Ubuntu,
and start
offering it pre-installed.
> While Linux isn't big enough to greatly influence the
entire market,
> Ubuntu might have enough buying power to influence some
of the more
> minor hardware manufacturers, particularly if working
together with
> the other Linux distros. I don't really need
open-source drivers to
> all hardware, so long as there is one piece of easily
available
> hardware in each class that does what I need and has
open-source
> drivers. In any case, the threat "if you don't
provide an open source
> driver, I'll buy my card from Ubuntu.com" has much
more financial
> power than threatening to pay full price but only use
the text mode of
> your video card or whatever.
>
Yeah, the amount of research I have to do, just to make sure
I'm buying
something that works with linux drives me nuts. A lot of
this is the
fault of the vendors, who change components in devices
without making it
known.
John
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| Re: Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy
to do the right thing. |
 
China |
2007-02-25 08:53:08 |
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Hopefully, it will be more of a distraction from binary driver flame wars  In any case, something that humans often try to do by hardware. These days I find Ubuntu quite easy to use. Shopping for presents to reward my Ubuntu machine with, on the other hand, can be quite a hassle.
Amen to that. ; I'm trying to find a printer. It's uphill work because there's a < 1% overlap (and none of these in the "affordable"; category) between the printers I can buy and the printers listed as "definitely working" at openprinting.org. Digging deeper under the covers I find that several printers are basically just relabelled versions of other ones (a total "WTF?!" scenario!) so I actually do have some prospects now.
This was not time well-spent, digging for that.
--
Michael T. Richter <ttmrichtergmail.com>
Disclaimer: Any people who think that opinions expressed from my private email account in any way, shape or form are those of my employer have more lawyers at their beck and call than they do brain cells.
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| Re: Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy
to do the right thing. |
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2007-02-25 08:42:19 |
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I've found that a lot of these places don't bother with any system integration issues. They just sell a box with a Linux distro that kinda works. Dig under the covers and you'll find half the hardware ill- or un-supported.
I guess the main thing is if hardware is tested in parallel with software. It could be the job of "somebody" ran extensive tests on a particular hardware configuration, and as a result of those tests come up with
One or more videocards that just work (even under rigourous tests)
One or more scanners that just work
One or more laptops that just work
One of more wireless PCMCIA cards that just work
etc.
Then this list could be annotated with contact details for ordering etc. and this information could be passed on to franchisees. Contacting the suppliers and asking them to warn us before they switch components would be a plus.
Basically it would be good if all these little players could be persuaded to join forces and share knowledge, a brand and provide some form of Ubuntu certified hardware in addition to whatever else they provide.
> I can't speak for Ubuntu/Canonical, but I really doubt it would be
> feasible. It would entail sourcing hardware, setting up distribution
There are a number of tiny corner shops that can source hardware to some extent. Even if they just had a "sourcing Linux hardware for dummies"-like guide on hand that would be a plus.
We put up with this shit. ; No company does the right thing because it's the right thing. They do the right thing because they've been forced at gunpoint (symbolically) to do it.
Well if there is just one company that is doing the right thing, I think it is more productive to reward them by making it easier for the confused consumers to find their products, than to try to holding what amounts to a very small gun to the heads of the other companies. Also the consumers would have an instant benefit without having to wait for the major players to back down and provide better Linux support.
> things. Strikes me as a dangerous distraction from the core task: making
>; a Linux for humans.
Hopefully, it will be more of a distraction from binary driver flame wars In any case, something that humans often try to do by hardware. These days I find Ubuntu quite easy to use. Shopping for presents to reward my Ubuntu machine with, on the other hand, can be quite a hassle.
--
John C. McCabe-Dansted
PhD Student
University of Western Australia
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| Re: Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy
to do the right thing. |
China |
2007-02-25 06:35:39 |
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There are an increasing number of small, local shops selling computers
with linux - often Ubuntu - pre-installed. See the linux vendor database:
http://lxer.com/module/db/index.php?dbn=14
I've found that a lot of these places don't bother with any system integration issues. They just sell a box with a Linux distro that kinda works. Dig under the covers and you'll find half the hardware ill- or un-supported.
Yeah, the amount of research I have to do, just to make sure I'm buying
something that works with linux drives me nuts. A lot of this is the
fault of the vendors, who change components in devices without making it
known.
I blame, as with almost all the fiascos in computing, the consumer.
We put up with this shit. ; No company does the right thing because it's the right thing. They do the right thing because they've been forced at gunpoint (symbolically) to do it.
--
Michael T. Richter <ttmrichtergmail.com>
Disclaimer: Any people who think that opinions expressed from my private email account in any way, shape or form are those of my employer have more lawyers at their beck and call than they do brain cells.
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| Re: Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy
to do the right thing. |
 
Italy |
2007-02-25 09:37:41 |
I hope I'm not going OT, but there is an italian reseller
who tests much
of his hardware under ubuntu. The site is www.essedi.it. I
often use it
for reference.
Bye
gianmarco
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| Re: Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy
to do the right thing. |
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2007-02-26 09:04:53 |
On 2/25/07, Michael T. Richter <ttmrichtergmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to find a printer. It's uphill work because
there's a < 1% overlap (and none of these in the
"affordable" category) between the printers I can
buy and the printers listed as "definitely
working" at openprinting.org. Digging deeper under the
covers I find that several printers are basically just
relabelled versions of other ones (a total "WTF?!"
scenario!) so I actually do have some prospects now.
>
> This was not time well-spent, digging for that.
I know what you are saying. One shortcut I have used is to
look for
printers that are "Macintosh compatible," because
that sometimes means
there will be a driver for them in CUPS. Laser printers,
that is. The
situation is more difficult with inkjet printers.
Fortunately for
inkjets, if you don't mind paying for a non-free driver,
there's the
excellent TurboPrint http://www.turboprint.de/ that supports many
inkjets very nicely, including old and new ones that are
not
well-supported in CUPS. I use it happily for an old inkjet I
have that
will handle oversized envelopes.
But lasers continue to be frustrating. Several years back I
found what
I thought would be the perfect laser printer (a Lexmark
Optra K 1220)
because it included a network card and support for Mac,
Windows and
linux printing. It's true that it has been completely
compatible with
absolutely everything I have connected to it. Unfortunately
I cannot
recommend the printer because that particular model has not
been very
durable, flexible or inexpensive compared to others. And
since nobody
else bought it, its parts and supplies cost me more every
year.
Surely more manufacturers and vendors will start advertising
linux
compatibility... as this thread points out it will be a real
draw in
some circles. A few vendors such as newegg.com already
include linux
in their keywords, and their customer reviews often include
comments
about compatibility. So there's hope!
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| Re: Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy
to do the right thing. |
 
Germany |
2007-02-26 04:03:08 |
Gianmarco Leone <gm_lemail.it> wrote:
> I hope I'm not going OT, but there is an italian
reseller who tests much
> of his hardware under ubuntu. The site is
www.essedi.it. I often use it
> for reference.
In Germany there's <http://www.tuxhardware.
de>
Florian
--
<http://www.florian-
diesch.de/>
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| Re: Hardware Advocacy or Making it easy
to do the right thing. |
China |
2007-02-26 22:01:55 |
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Surely more manufacturers and vendors will start advertising linux
compatibility... as this thread points out it will be a real draw in
some circles. A few vendors such as newegg.com already include linux
in their keywords, and their customer reviews often include comments
about compatibility. So there's hope!
They will not. The problem is one which is fundamentally at cross-purposes to the F/OSS movement's philosophy -- particularly the "software wants to be free" segment of it.
Hardware is a strongly-competitive industry full of trade secrets. (One of the trade secrets most jealously protected is just how bad most hardware is under the covers....) The algorithms used, for example, in video cards, audio cards and printers tend to be extremely secretive, especially the algorithms used to give astonishingly low-quality, dumb hardware enough smarts to do fancy things. (I'm looking at most inkjet printers here.) You will not convince people who make hardware that's already on a very tight margin to release what trade secrets and competitive advantages they have just to collect a few extra whiny users. No amount of screaming or stomping of feet is going to change what hardware manufacturers do and the Linux world is simply not a lucrative nor large enough market to force anything.
That leaves out open source drivers.
Closed source drivers, too, are problematical, but this time the problem is on our end. The Linux kernel doesn't have a stable ABI and even a minor version change can result in existing drivers simply failing to work. ; I know that when I worked for these guys that we got lots of requests to support Linux. I, as the driver guy at the time, looked into it each time and laughed because there was no way in Hell we would be playing the game of matching this card, that kernel version under this other distro just to get one or two customers. (It looks like they support Linux now -- after a fashion -- by doing the "we'll support these specific versions of these two distros" routine.) Some manufacturers have worked around this -- to the eternal whinging of F/OSS advocates everywhere -- by embedding a proprietary blob in a free wrapper. This is not a good solution in the long run either because a) the whining of militant F/OSS types gets very annoying and likely causes some potential Linux supporters to not bother and b) it's a lot of extra work for a fringe market again.
So what kinds of solutions would there be?
Well, first, we can keep Linux as a hobbyist fringe. (This is a solution that many of the more militant wings of the F/OSS movement seem to approve of most.) Second, we can lighten up a little and stop hassling the people taking the blob approach -- use persuasion to move the blob out into the open instead of whining and threats. Third, we can make a stable ABI to Linux and stick to it, thus allowing people who maybe aren't quite ready to open their source the chance to expand our market for us. Then, again, we can use gentle persuasion to move them from pure-proprietary to blob-proprietary to openness. Unfortunately the latter two approaches require patience and tolerance, something the militant wings -- the Stallmanists, if you will -- are not noted for having.
--
Michael T. Richter <ttmrichtergmail.com>
Disclaimer: Any people who think that opinions expressed from my private email account in any way, shape or form are those of my employer have more lawyers at their beck and call than they do brain cells.
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