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List Info
Thread: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
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| Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?) |
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2007-12-12 04:58:55 |
On Nov 28, 2007 4:49 AM, Colin Watson <cjwatson ubuntu.com> wrote:
> We are always looking for more ways to reduce CD size
so that we can fit
> more things on the CD [...] There are various other
targets of opportunity
> [...] that we'll be looking into as well.
OK, at the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest, I note the
suggestion on
http://lost-midnight.blogspot.c
om/2007/12/remove-mono-dependancy-from-ubuntu.html
---
There has been a wide range of discussion on the subject of
Mono and
its inclusion in Ubuntu by default. Some people believe that
Mono may
infringe on Microsoft patents while others believe that it
is useful
to include. Personally, I have no idea about whether Mono
does
infringe on Microsoft patents, but I see other reasons why
Ubuntu
should remove it.
Mono by default takes 48MB of space on the CD. The ISO
download is
690+ MB. Therefore, it is taking up valuable space that
could be used
for a whole host of other things. Also, for that 48MB, there
are just
two applications which use Mono. These are F-spot (photo
manager) and
Tomboy (note application). Ubuntu also includes two other
programs
which do a similar job, gThumb (photo manager) and GNOME
sticky notes.
In my opinion, these two applications function well enough
to warrant
the removal of Mono dependent programs.
---
You might want to fact-check the disk space claim, but if
that's the
case, its a good point totally irrespective of the 'Java
Trap'
(http://w
ww.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html) type scenarios
I've
read (http://www.gnome
.org/~seth/blog/mono) about Mono.
Sincerely,
Conrad Knauer
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| Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for
Hardy?) |
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2007-12-13 18:57:14 |
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I don't know much about the technical details of Mono, but I can say this:
a) I don't care about "potential, maybe, vaguely insinuated" patent threats - unless MS actually starts giving evidence, even discussing this is falling prey to the FUD, just like they want us to.
b) F-Spot and Tomboy are great apps, and definitely helpful for a large number of users. Ignoring the issues of whether Mono is the "best" use of space, treated for their own merits they are worthy of default inclusion.
c) Given our usual policy of shipping one application per task, dropping gThumb and Sticky Notes from the default installation probably makes sense, and perhaps this will help with some part of the space concerns.
Additionally, Scribus and Inkscape are also pretty cool, but adding a Qt dependency to a Gnome install makes no sense. Now, if Kubuntu wants to look at these that might be a decent idea, and could provide a unique attraction to the Kubuntu member of the Ubuntu family.
Finally, I would very much like to see two things included by default, and hope that space can be found on the CD for them:
1.) Seahorse - security is important, and the easier we make it, the more people will actually bother to do it
2.) Conduit - this seems like the way for things to go overall; the more integration and synchronization the desktop can get with _everything_, the better.
(I should also note at this point that if we're going to keep shipping Rhythmbox by default, someone should really see to it that it gets two-way transfer support for iPods included before the next release - a feature included in Exaile and Banshee already, and which I've heard rumored is available in CVS already.)
--
Tony Yarusso
http://blog.tonyyarusso.com/
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| Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for
Hardy?) |
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2007-12-13 19:17:58 |
On 12/13/07, Tony Yarusso <tonyyarussogmail.com> wrote:
> Additionally, Scribus and Inkscape are also pretty
cool, but adding a Qt
> dependency to a Gnome install makes no sense.
While Scribus is a Qt app, Inkscape is not - it's another
GTK app.
Adding Inkscape wouldn't add any Qt/KDE depend problems.
Inkscape even
follows the Gnome HIG.
Adding Inkscape to the default Ubuntu would be really cool -
it's a
fantastic program - but I haven't been following the
technical details
of what would fit and what won't, so I'll leave it at that.
Brian
wirelizard.ca
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| Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for
Hardy?) |
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2007-12-13 23:26:53 |
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On Dec 13, 2007 7:17 PM, Brian Burger < blurdesigngmail.com">blurdesigngmail.com> wrote:
Bah, my mistake. Now the question is, what on earth app am I thinking of...
--
Tony Yarusso
http://blog.tonyyarusso.com/
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| Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for
Hardy?) |
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2007-12-14 01:22:03 |
On Dec 14, 2007 8:57 AM, Tony Yarusso <tonyyarussogmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know much about the technical details of Mono,
but I can say this:
> a) I don't care about "potential, maybe, vaguely
insinuated" patent threats
> - unless MS actually starts giving evidence, even
discussing this is falling
> prey to the FUD, just like they want us to.
> b) F-Spot and Tomboy are great apps, and definitely
helpful for a large
> number of users. Ignoring the issues of whether Mono
is the "best" use of
> space, treated for their own merits they are worthy of
default inclusion.
> c) Given our usual policy of shipping one application
per task, dropping
> gThumb and Sticky Notes from the default installation
probably makes sense,
> and perhaps this will help with some part of the space
concerns.
>
> Additionally, Scribus and Inkscape are also pretty
cool, but adding a Qt
> dependency to a Gnome install makes no sense. Now, if
Kubuntu wants to look
> at these that might be a decent idea, and could provide
a unique attraction
> to the Kubuntu member of the Ubuntu family.
>
> Finally, I would very much like to see two things
included by default, and
> hope that space can be found on the CD for them:
> 1.) Seahorse - security is important, and the easier we
make it, the more
> people will actually bother to do it
> 2.) Conduit - this seems like the way for things to go
overall; the more
> integration and synchronization the desktop can get
with _everything_, the
> better.
>
Conduit is still very premature, I just installed it last
week, and it
crashes a lot. (And it also add itself to autostart without
asking me)
> (I should also note at this point that if we're going
to keep shipping
> Rhythmbox by default, someone should really see to it
that it gets two-way
> transfer support for iPods included before the next
release - a feature
> included in Exaile and Banshee already, and which I've
heard rumored is
> available in CVS already.)
>
> --
> Tony Yarusso
> http://blog.tonyyarusso.
com/
> --
> sounder mailing list
> sounderlists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> htt
ps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/sounder
>
>
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| Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for
Hardy?) |
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2007-12-14 08:52:00 |
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You cannot "redo" in Tomboy, and if you do any formatting in it, it doesn't carry over to Firefox (possibly other apps). So I'll be looking into getting the sticky notes myself.
On Dec 14, 2007 2:22 AM, Joel Bryan Juliano < joelbryan. julianogmail.com">joelbryan.julianogmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 14, 2007 8:57 AM, Tony Yarusso < tonyyaruss ogmail.com">tonyyarussogmail.com> wrote:
>; I don't know much about the technical details of Mono, but I can say this:
> a) I don't care about "potential, maybe, vaguely insinuated" patent threats
> - unless MS actually starts giving evidence, even discussing this is falling
> prey to the FUD, just like they want us to.
> b) F-Spot and Tomboy are great apps, and definitely helpful for a large
> number of users. Ignoring the issues of whether Mono is the "best" use of
> space, treated for their own merits they are worthy of default inclusion.
> c) Given our usual policy of shipping one application per task, dropping
> gThumb and Sticky Notes from the default installation probably makes sense,
>; and perhaps this will help with some part of the space concerns.
>
> Additionally, Scribus and Inkscape are also pretty cool, but adding a Qt
> dependency to a Gnome install makes no sense. Now, if Kubuntu wants to look
> at these that might be a decent idea, and could provide a unique attraction
> to the Kubuntu member of the Ubuntu family.
>
> Finally, I would very much like to see two things included by default, and
> hope that space can be found on the CD for them:
> 1.) Seahorse - security is important, and the easier we make it, the more
>; people will actually bother to do it
> 2.) Conduit - this seems like the way for things to go overall; the more
> integration and synchronization the desktop can get with _everything_, the
> better.
>
crashes a lot. (And it also add itself to autostart without asking me)
> (I should also note at this point that if we're going to keep shipping
> Rhythmbox by default, someone should really see to it that it gets two-way
> transfer support for iPods included before the next release - a feature
> included in Exaile and Banshee already, and which I've heard rumored is
> available in CVS already.)
>
> --
> Tony Yarusso
> http://blog.tonyyarusso.com/
--
Computer Science Honours and Scholar Student
Cisco Certified Network Associate
Microsoft Certified Professional
Mayers-Briggs Personality Type: INFP
GTK+, C, Perl, Python, Ruby, XML, XMLHTTPRequest, XHTML, JavaScript,
POSIX Bash (Dash)
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| Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for
Hardy?) |
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2007-12-14 12:39:03 |
On Dec 13, 2007 11:26 PM, Tony Yarusso <tonyyarussogmail.com> wrote:
> > > Additionally, Scribus and Inkscape are also
pretty cool, but adding a Qt
> > > dependency to a Gnome install makes no
sense.
> >
> > While Scribus is a Qt app, Inkscape is not - it's
another GTK app.
> > Adding Inkscape wouldn't add any Qt/KDE depend
problems. Inkscape even
> > follows the Gnome HIG.
>
> Bah, my mistake. Now the question is, what on earth
app am I thinking of...
virtualbox-ose maybe?
Personally I don't mind if an app has a libqt3-mt dependency
(as
virtualbox-ose does... or python-qt3 like hplip-gui does!)
if it can
be integrated nicely into the Ubuntu desktop (as Virtualbox
can).
CK
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| Re: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?) |
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2007-12-16 05:29:41 |
On 12/12/07, Conrad Knauer <atheoigmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 28, 2007 4:49 AM, Colin Watson <cjwatsonubuntu.com> wrote:
>
> > We are always looking for more ways to reduce CD
size so that we can fit
> > more things on the CD [...] There are various
other targets of opportunity
> > [...] that we'll be looking into as well.
>
> OK, at the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest, I note
the suggestion on
> http://lost-midnight.blogspot.c
om/2007/12/remove-mono-dependancy-from-ubuntu.html
>
> ---
> There has been a wide range of discussion on the
subject of Mono and
> its inclusion in Ubuntu by default. Some people believe
that Mono may
> infringe on Microsoft patents while others believe that
it is useful
> to include. Personally, I have no idea about whether
Mono does
> infringe on Microsoft patents, but I see other reasons
why Ubuntu
> should remove it.
>
> Mono by default takes 48MB of space on the CD. The ISO
download is
> 690+ MB. Therefore, it is taking up valuable space that
could be used
> for a whole host of other things. Also, for that 48MB,
there are just
> two applications which use Mono. These are F-spot
(photo manager) and
> Tomboy (note application). Ubuntu also includes two
other programs
> which do a similar job, gThumb (photo manager) and
GNOME sticky notes.
>
> In my opinion, these two applications function well
enough to warrant
> the removal of Mono dependent programs.
> ---
>
> You might want to fact-check the disk space claim, but
if that's the
> case, its a good point totally irrespective of the
'Java Trap'
> (http://w
ww.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html) type scenarios
I've
> read (http://www.gnome
.org/~seth/blog/mono) about Mono.
>
> Sincerely,
> Conrad Knauer
>
Albert Einstein once said "Make everything as simple as
possible, but
not simpler", and this simple wisdom was proved by
Linus Torvalds on
his strong opinions about Gnome, what I think what he really
means is
"display capabilities and functionality as simple as
possible, but
Gnome was literally making things simpler by displaying
simple things
much more simpler", well, we don't talk to a kid the
same way we talk
to adults, that would be really abnormal, and annoying, (ie.
what's
the spelling dude, it's A, repeat after me, B.. C..). Well
as for
removing Mono, I think it's definitely not an option to be
put on the
table, because dependent applications with it are essentials
that
provides many capabilities and functionalities, that are
simple and
easy to use. Removing it would seems to be a very
"abnormal" decision.
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