Timezone recommendations?

Hy Justin,

first you should ask yourself the question what you really
want to be 
displayed.

A timezone itself can not be translated because it's
worldwide the same... 
GMT+1 is always GMT+1, in every language.
Also US/Arizona is always this timezone and so on...

Reading your post I got the feeling that you do not know
yourself what you 
want.

You are speaking of timezones (which is worldwide the
same).
You are speaking of cities (which have nothing to do with
timezones).
You are speaking of Windows to Timezone conversion (which is
only relevant 
for people working with Windows timezones).
You are speaking of different results using different
timezones (which is 
logical when the locale differs).

So first please go into yourself and think about WHAT do you
want your users 
to be displayed. When you have cleared what you really want
we will look 
into what is possible and what is not.

Greetings
Thomas Weidner, I18N Team Leader, Zend Framework
http://www.thomasweidner
.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Hendrickson"
<justin.hendricksongmail.com>
To: <fw-generallists.zend.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:10 PM
Subject: [fw-general] Timezone recommendations?


> I'm trying to create a list of translated timezones,
but I'm finding the
> variety of options pretty overwhelming.
>
> I wanted to avoid having to store GMT offsets and DST
flags, and instead
> store PHP  area/location values 
> (http://us.p
hp.net/manual/en/timezones.php)
> which I could fetch via timezone_identifiers_list() (
> http://us.php.net/manual/en/function.timezone-
identifiers-list.php), but 
> it
> seems to be pretty impractical to display that entire
list to end users.
> There's a lot of ambiguity in list as well. For
example, US/Arizona and
> America/Phoenix; America/Havana and Cuba; UTC and UCT.
Additionally, PHP
> doesn't offer any translations so there was no way I
was going to do that
> myself.
>
> I thought I'd have a little more luck using Zend_Locale
getting
> translations, so I looked at the CityToTimezone list.
For some reason,
> Zend_Locale_Data::getList('en', 'CityToTimezone') only
returns three
> results. Other locales returned various different
counts (es: 83, el: 
> 293),
> so I'm a bit confused how to use it. I also tried the
WindowsToTimezone 
> list
> which seems promising as a compromise of completeness
vs usability, but
> there were ambiguous entries (US Mountain and Mountain)
in the list and 
> none
> of the results were coming back translated.
>
> I tried search Google for a bit, but I wasn't able to
find any
> recommendations or guidelines for timezone selection,
so I'm at a dead 
> end.
> Any suggestions?
> 

On 2 May 2008, at 20:10, Justin Hendrickson wrote:

> I tried search Google for a bit, but I wasn't able to
find any  
> recommendations or guidelines for timezone selection,
so I'm at a  
> dead end. Any suggestions?


I found good translations for ISO3166 country names on
wikipedia, so  
could try there.

Marcus
-- 
Marcus Bointon
Synchromedia Limited: Creators of http://www.smartmessage
s.net/
UK resellers of infohand CRM solutions
marcussynchromedia.co.uk | http://www.synchromedi
a.co.uk/

Marcus,

the question was related to timezones and not to country
names.
ZF offers country name translation per default for all
languages.

Greetings
Thomas Weidner, I18N Team Leader, Zend Framework
http://www.thomasweidner
.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bointon" <marcussynchromedia.co.uk>
To: "Justin Hendrickson"
<justin.hendricksongmail.com>
Cc: <fw-generallists.zend.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [fw-general] Timezone recommendations?


> On 2 May 2008, at 20:10, Justin Hendrickson wrote:
> 
>> I tried search Google for a bit, but I wasn't able
to find any  
>> recommendations or guidelines for timezone
selection, so I'm at a  
>> dead end. Any suggestions?
> 
> 
> I found good translations for ISO3166 country names on
wikipedia, so  
> could try there.
> 
> Marcus
> -- 
> Marcus Bointon
> Synchromedia Limited: Creators of http://www.smartmessage
s.net/
> UK resellers of infohand CRM solutions
> marcussynchromedia.co.uk | http://www.synchromedi
a.co.uk/
>

On 2 May 2008, at 20:25, Thomas Weidner wrote:

> You are speaking of cities (which have nothing to do
with timezones).


I think this is what he is after - it's not about the time
zones  
themselves, but about their naming and presentation,
however, it is a  
very fixed and predictable data set with the same index in
all  
languages, so looking for a set of translations seems
reasonable to me  
- indirection through a generic list of cities seems like a
bad idea  
when the purpose is so specific. I thought of setting up a
sourceforge  
project to gather translation sets like that after I had
such a hard  
time finding ISO 3166 and 639 translations, when they are
things that  
just about any translated app will need.

> the question was related to timezones and not to
country names.
> ZF offers country name translation per default for all
languages.

I realise that, I was merely suggesting that there might be 

translations for other data sets on there too.

Marcus
-- 
Marcus Bointon
Synchromedia Limited: Creators of http://www.smartmessage
s.net/
UK resellers of infohand CRM solutions
marcussynchromedia.co.uk | http://www.synchromedi
a.co.uk/

Justin,

GMT+1 is DST aware... UTC is not.

>From the point of usability you have only a few
options:
 * Display the original timezone name... it is the same in
every language 
and does not need a translation
 * Display only the hour-difference... most users which are
able to use 
computers are also aware of the hour difference they belong
to GMT
 * Display cities... this integrates the problem that you
need all selected 
cities translated to all 128 languages. Or you display the
city name always 
in original language which could be irritating to users

>From simplicity and what I've seen in other applications
in multiple 
businesses I would only show the full timezone name.

Greetings
Thomas Weidner, I18N Team Leader, Zend Framework
http://www.thomasweidner
.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Hendrickson"
<justin.hendricksongmail.com>
To: "Thomas Weidner" <thomas.weidnergmx.at>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [fw-general] Timezone recommendations?


> You're right, I have no idea how I want to display it.
Are there any
> usability studies, opinions, preferences or
recommendations? I'd like to
> hear them since I have little experience in this area.
>
> My hope was that Zend_Locale had an implementation of
the preferred way of
> doing it, which is why I was confused by the variety of
methods and lack 
> of
> a clear answer to my problem.
>
> I'd like to make things as easy on myself and the users
as possible when
> selecting their timezone. It's my understanding that
the area/location
> "timezones" are DST-aware and respect changes
made by governing bodies, so
> using them seems to make the most sense. Since GMT+/-#
aren't DST-aware, 
> I'd
> like to avoid them.
>
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Thomas Weidner
<thomas.weidnergmx.at>
> wrote:
>
>> Hy Justin,
>>
>> first you should ask yourself the question what you
really want to be
>> displayed.
>>
>> A timezone itself can not be translated because
it's worldwide the 
>> same...
>> GMT+1 is always GMT+1, in every language.
>> Also US/Arizona is always this timezone and so
on...
>>
>> Reading your post I got the feeling that you do not
know yourself what 
>> you
>> want.
>>
>> You are speaking of timezones (which is worldwide
the same).
>> You are speaking of cities (which have nothing to
do with timezones).
>> You are speaking of Windows to Timezone conversion
(which is only 
>> relevant
>> for people working with Windows timezones).
>> You are speaking of different results using
different timezones (which is
>> logical when the locale differs).
>>
>> So first please go into yourself and think about
WHAT do you want your
>> users to be displayed. When you have cleared what
you really want we will
>> look into what is possible and what is not.
>>
>> Greetings
>> Thomas Weidner, I18N Team Leader, Zend Framework
>> http://www.thomasweidner
.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin
Hendrickson" <
>> justin.hendricksongmail.com>
>> To: <fw-generallists.zend.com>
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:10 PM
>> Subject: [fw-general] Timezone recommendations?
>>
>>
>>
>>  I'm trying to create a list of translated
timezones, but I'm finding the
>> > variety of options pretty overwhelming.
>> >
>> > I wanted to avoid having to store GMT offsets
and DST flags, and 
>> > instead
>> > store PHP  area/location values (
>> > http://us.p
hp.net/manual/en/timezones.php)
>> > which I could fetch via
timezone_identifiers_list() (
>> > http://us.php.net/manual/en/function.timezone-
identifiers-list.php), 
>> > but
>> > it
>> > seems to be pretty impractical to display that
entire list to end 
>> > users.
>> > There's a lot of ambiguity in list as well.
For example, US/Arizona and
>> > America/Phoenix; America/Havana and Cuba; UTC
and UCT. Additionally, 
>> > PHP
>> > doesn't offer any translations so there was no
way I was going to do
>> > that
>> > myself.
>> >
>> > I thought I'd have a little more luck using
Zend_Locale getting
>> > translations, so I looked at the
CityToTimezone list. For some reason,
>> > Zend_Locale_Data::getList('en',
'CityToTimezone') only returns three
>> > results. Other locales returned various
different counts (es: 83, el:
>> > 293),
>> > so I'm a bit confused how to use it. I also
tried the WindowsToTimezone
>> > list
>> > which seems promising as a compromise of
completeness vs usability, but
>> > there were ambiguous entries (US Mountain and
Mountain) in the list and
>> > none
>> > of the results were coming back translated.
>> >
>> > I tried search Google for a bit, but I wasn't
able to find any
>> > recommendations or guidelines for timezone
selection, so I'm at a dead
>> > end.
>> > Any suggestions?
>> >
>> >
>>
> 

Marcus,

ISO3166 and ISO639 and timezones are three complete
different things.
And he asked for timezones as he wrote in his reply.

We already offer multiple pre translated data sets but it's
impossible to 
have 100% complete data for all 128 available languages.
This is the reason why we have integrated CLDR and have not
done this data 
collection ourself.

Greetings
Thomas Weidner, I18N Team Leader, Zend Framework
http://www.thomasweidner
.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bointon" <marcussynchromedia.co.uk>
To: "Thomas Weidner" <thomas.weidnergmx.at>
Cc: "Justin Hendrickson"
<justin.hendricksongmail.com>; 
<fw-generallists.zend.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: [fw-general] Timezone recommendations?


> On 2 May 2008, at 20:25, Thomas Weidner wrote:
>
>> You are speaking of cities (which have nothing to
do with timezones).
>
>
> I think this is what he is after - it's not about the
time zones 
> themselves, but about their naming and presentation,
however, it is a 
> very fixed and predictable data set with the same index
in all  languages, 
> so looking for a set of translations seems reasonable
to me  - indirection 
> through a generic list of cities seems like a bad idea 
when the purpose 
> is so specific. I thought of setting up a sourceforge 
project to gather 
> translation sets like that after I had such a hard 
time finding ISO 3166 
> and 639 translations, when they are things that  just
about any translated 
> app will need.
>
>> the question was related to timezones and not to
country names.
>> ZF offers country name translation per default for
all languages.
>
> I realise that, I was merely suggesting that there
might be  translations 
> for other data sets on there too.
>
> Marcus
> -- 
> Marcus Bointon
> Synchromedia Limited: Creators of http://www.smartmessage
s.net/
> UK resellers of infohand CRM solutions
> marcussynchromedia.co.uk | http://www.synchromedi
a.co.uk/
> 

Eric,

>From the point of usability there would be two ways...
Use google maps and make a connection to timezone.

OR
let the user select his country, then you would know the
timezone to use.

Greetings
Thomas Weidner, I18N Team Leader, Zend Framework
http://www.thomasweidner
.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Marden" <Eric.Mardenbonniercorp.com>
To: <fw-generallists.zend.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 10:41 PM
Subject: RE: [fw-general] Timezone recommendations?


* Utilize a subset of the full list, if you know where most
of your
traffic is from. Or limit it based on information you've
already
collected (country, etc)
 
* Create a widget that represents the timezone selections
via a map and
drop down list (similar to what some operating systems do
when using the
'formal' list of timezones). 
 
I've always wanted to create something like this using a
flash map
(htt
p://www.usflashmap.com/products/time_zone_map/
<http://www.usflashmap.com/products/time_zone_map/> )
and with different
points on the map representing the named timezones at:
http://us.php.net/manual/en/function.timezone-
identifiers-list.php
<http://us.php.net/manual/en/function.timez
one-identifiers-list.php>
but have never ponied up the bucks for the graphics or had
more time to
persue it.
 
--
Eric Marden
 


________________________________

From: Justin Hendrickson [mailto:justin.hendricksongmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:11 PM
To: fw-generallists.zend.com
Subject: [fw-general] Timezone recommendations?


I'm trying to create a list of translated timezones, but
I'm
finding the variety of options pretty overwhelming.

I wanted to avoid having to store GMT offsets and DST flags,
and
instead store PHP  area/location values
(http://us.p
hp.net/manual/en/timezones.php) which I could fetch via
timezone_identifiers_list()
(http://us.php.net/manual/en/function.timezone-
identifiers-list.php),
but it seems to be pretty impractical to display that entire
list to end
users. There's a lot of ambiguity in list as well. For
example,
US/Arizona and America/Phoenix; America/Havana and Cuba; UTC
and UCT.
Additionally, PHP doesn't offer any translations so there
was no way I
was going to do that myself.

I thought I'd have a little more luck using Zend_Locale
getting
translations, so I looked at the CityToTimezone list. For
some reason,
Zend_Locale_Data::getList('en', 'CityToTimezone') only
returns three
results. Other locales returned various different counts
(es: 83, el:
293), so I'm a bit confused how to use it. I also tried the
WindowsToTimezone list which seems promising as a compromise
of
completeness vs usability, but there were ambiguous entries
(US Mountain
and Mountain) in the list and none of the results were
coming back
translated.

I tried search Google for a bit, but I wasn't able to find
any
recommendations or guidelines for timezone selection, so I'm
at a dead
end. Any suggestions?

Justin,

That was just an example...
I know that several states and countries do not apply DST.
But this is 
something PHP is aware itself.

Non DST zones are known by the zonename. There is no
"value" to select from 
because the DST awareness changes depending on the zone and
the date.

Btw: For ALL... please do always answer to the list and not
only private.

Greetings
Thomas Weidner, I18N Team Leader, Zend Framework
http://www.thomasweidner
.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Hendrickson"
<justin.hendricksongmail.com>
To: "Thomas Weidner" <thomas.weidnergmx.at>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: [fw-general] Timezone recommendations?


> >
>> GMT+1 is DST aware... UTC is not.
>
>
> Really? That doesn't sound right. IIRC, Arizona doesn't
use DST. Is there 
> a
> special GMT value for non-DST zones?
>