OMAP 2420 / lower level hardware docs?

Jeff Sauer wrote:
> Anyone have any links to specifics on the ARM CPU and
other "blocks" of 
> the OMAP 2420?

AFAIK you get this information (at least the interesting
stuff: e.g. 
3D-hardware) only if
a)you sign a NDA and
b)if your company will order a significant number of
devices.

So, I think, Nokia has that information but can not release
it to the 
public. I hope someone there will decide that a hardware
supported 
OpenGL driver would be a big benefit for the N800.

Another solution would be that the open source community can
convince TI 
to release those technical documents to the public.

-- 
Klaus Rotter * klaus <at> rotters <dot> de *
www.rotters.de
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On 3/11/07, Klaus Rotter <klausrotters.de> wrote:
> Jeff Sauer wrote:
> > Anyone have any links to specifics on the ARM CPU
and other "blocks" of
> > the OMAP 2420?
>
> AFAIK you get this information (at least the
interesting stuff: e.g.
> 3D-hardware) only if
> a)you sign a NDA and
> b)if your company will order a significant number of
devices.
>
> So, I think, Nokia has that information but can not
release it to the
> public. I hope someone there will decide that a
hardware supported
> OpenGL driver would be a big benefit for the N800.

Using a closed CPU like the TI  OMAP in an open device like
the N800
wasn't the best pairing. Maybe next time Nokia will use a
similar but
open processor like the Freescale MX31.

They also could have picked open wifi like Ralink, Realtek
or Zydas
instead of the closed Conexant chip. Hopefully companies
like Nokia
will become more sensitive to open vs closed hardware as
they build
more Linux enabled devices.

> Another solution would be that the open source
community can convince TI
> to release those technical documents to the public.

This tactic has been successful in the past. A large
customer
convinced ATI to release the hardware documentation for the
R200
series, but ATI closed their doc back up after the customer
switched
to another graphics chips. Nokia could simply inform
TI/Conexant that
the next generation devices will only use open hardware and
see what
their response is.

-- 
Jon Smirl
jonsmirlgmail.com
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Jon Smirl wrote:
> Using a closed CPU like the TI  OMAP in an open device
like the N800
> wasn't the best pairing. Maybe next time Nokia will use
a similar but
> open processor like the Freescale MX31.

Well, a lot of the parts of the OMAP 2420 is open. There are
(of course) 
open source linux drivers for main parts of that device.
Other parts 
(e.g. the 3D-accelerator) may be licenced from another
companies, and 
the licence may forbid releasing those infos. Isn't the OMAP
3D stuff 
based on the Permedia Chips?

> They also could have picked open wifi like Ralink,
Realtek or Zydas
> instead of the closed Conexant chip. Hopefully
companies like Nokia
> will become more sensitive to open vs closed hardware
as they build
> more Linux enabled devices.

Yes and no. The people who designed the N770 once said, that
they had to 
use parts which already been used to build other Nokia
devices. That 
made the production cheaper. I think this belongs also to
the N800. The 
OMAP 2420 and the Wifi chip is used in other devices as
well. If the 
N800 made a top seller the designers are more _free_ to use
other parts 
as well. It would be interesting, how many N770 have been
sold. It seems 
enough to go on for new devices like the N800. But I fear,
it isn't a 
big benefit. But Nokia made a billon euro profit, so someone
there 
thinks there are some euros left to go new ways, and Linux
on handhelds 
is a new way for Nokia.

I am happy enough that Nokia is still producing, selling and
developing 
new Linux devices. A lot of other companies, even big ones
like Sharp, 
tried Linux on handhelds and drew back. Ok, Sharp still
produces Linux 
devices, but they are only sold in Japan.

> to another graphics chips. Nokia could simply inform
TI/Conexant that
> the next generation devices will only use open hardware
and see what
> their response is.

They could try that. But I am not so fancy about open
sources drivers on 
handhelds anyway. I would be quite happy to have closed
source drivers 
as well. But there should be drivers. The reason is simple:
You can't 
get the OMAP cpu alone. You need a device for it, and the
company 
providing the device should also provide the drivers.
This is unlike for example a PC graphics card, which I can
get for a few 
euros and use it (with free drivers) on my Linux PC.

Ok, there are a lot of advantages of open source drivers:
What, if Nokia 
decides not to support the N800 any more? One could take the
released 
source and port it to a more modern kernel.

-- 
Klaus Rotter * klaus <at> rotters <dot> de *
www.rotters.de
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On Sun, 2007-03-11 at 17:06 +0100, Klaus Rotter wrote:
> I am happy enough that Nokia is still producing,
selling and developing 
> new Linux devices. A lot of other companies, even big
ones like Sharp, 
> tried Linux on handhelds and drew back. Ok, Sharp still
produces Linux 
> devices, but they are only sold in Japan.

Not any more they don't... the Zaurus was discontinued a
month or so
ago.

Ross
-- 
Ross Burton                                 mail: rossburtonini.com
                                          jabber: rossburtonini.com
                                     www: http://www.burtonini.com./

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On 3/11/07, Klaus Rotter <klausrotters.de> wrote:
> I am happy enough that Nokia is still producing,
selling and developing
> new Linux devices. A lot of other companies, even big
ones like Sharp,
> tried Linux on handhelds and drew back. Ok, Sharp still
produces Linux
> devices, but they are only sold in Japan.

We are definitely in need of more experimentation with
devices like
this. The formula for standard phones isn't working. My
phone has a
calendar, web broswer and downloadable apps. I use none of
those
features because they are too expensive and hard to use for
what you
get on the little screen. My next phone is simply going to
be the most
reliable basic phone I can find and I don't care any more
about these
other worthless features. Most of my colleagues have the
same opinion.

So I'm probably going in the direction Nokia wants with the
N800. All
of my fancy apps will be on the N800 and the phone just
becomes a
Bluetooth modem. Now I can buy a cheap simple phone (free
with my
contract) and put my larger budget into the N800. Linux is
key to
allowing the needed experimentation on the N800 to figure
out the set
of apps that the public truly wants. Fully open source and
open parts
allow the community to continue supporting old devices when
the
manufacturer is no longer interested.

While writing this it occurred to me that you could build
the N800 in
two pieces. I wonder if you could make a very small basic
phone that
could be firmly joined together with the display unit from
the N800.
They could share the CPU, battery, etc. Designing a phone
like that is
going to require some really innovative packaging.

-- 
Jon Smirl
jonsmirlgmail.com
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On Sun, Mar 11, 2007 at 10:28:01AM -0400, ext Jon Smirl
wrote:
> On 3/11/07, Klaus Rotter <klausrotters.de> wrote:
> >Jeff Sauer wrote:
> >> Anyone have any links to specifics on the ARM
CPU and other "blocks" of
> >> the OMAP 2420?
> >
> >AFAIK you get this information (at least the
interesting stuff: e.g.
> >3D-hardware) only if
> >a)you sign a NDA and
> >b)if your company will order a significant number
of devices.
> >
> >So, I think, Nokia has that information but can not
release it to the
> >public. I hope someone there will decide that a
hardware supported
> >OpenGL driver would be a big benefit for the N800.
> 
> Using a closed CPU like the TI  OMAP in an open device
like the N800
> wasn't the best pairing. Maybe next time Nokia will use
a similar but
> open processor like the Freescale MX31.

No, it makes absolutely no difference, because both the OMAP
2420 and
the i.MX31 ship with the Imagination (think: PowerVR) MBX. 
Imagination
are the ones who control the licensing of the driver and
specifications,
and it's still their decision.  So even if the N800 was
using the
i.MX31, it would make absolutely no difference at all in
terms of the
MBX.

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On Sun, 2007-03-11 at 10:28 -0400, ext Jon Smirl wrote:
> On 3/11/07, Klaus Rotter <klausrotters.de> wrote:
> > Jeff Sauer wrote:
> > > Anyone have any links to specifics on the ARM
CPU and other "blocks" of
> > > the OMAP 2420?
> >
> > AFAIK you get this information (at least the
interesting stuff: e.g.
> > 3D-hardware) only if
> > a)you sign a NDA and
> > b)if your company will order a significant number
of devices.
> >
> > So, I think, Nokia has that information but can
not release it to the
> > public. I hope someone there will decide that a
hardware supported
> > OpenGL driver would be a big benefit for the
N800.
> 
> Using a closed CPU like the TI  OMAP in an open device
like the N800
> wasn't the best pairing. Maybe next time Nokia will use
a similar but
> open processor like the Freescale MX31.

Standard Disclaimer: I am not speaking for Nokia.

Open vs. Closed is not the only criterion for selection.
Here are a few
others that come to mind that perhaps have greater weight on
the
decision process:

1. HW Availability -> Having a webpage doesn't translate
to availability
in volumes in a certain schedule.
2. Competence -> Moving to a new architecture requires
retraining - not
an insignificant cost+time.
3. Code rewrite -> Moving to new architecture requires
rewriting
low-level code. Again translates to cost+time.
4. Production capabilities -> As mentioned elsewhere,
current HW is used
in other Nokia products, so factories are setup for it.
5. Cost -> Buying things in volume is always cheaper,
refer to 4.
6. Technical specs -> Power vs. performance, Heat, size,
features, HW
roadmap, etc.

> They also could have picked open wifi like Ralink,
Realtek or Zydas
> instead of the closed Conexant chip. Hopefully
companies like Nokia
> will become more sensitive to open vs closed hardware
as they build
> more Linux enabled devices.

I would love it if all HW was hackable by developers, but in
reality, HW
companies haven't joined the open community in droves yet.
So Nokia is
left with two choices - make no products if they are not
totally open or
use current semi-closed HW and hope that HW vendors will
come around.
Nokia seems to have chosen the later. 

Regards,
Amit
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