No more 770 bug activity?

Can anyone from Nokia explain a recent comment[1] posted by
a Nokia employee in Bugzilla? Does the comment apply
specifically (and only) to the game, or to the entire OS
20066/770 platform?

According to Ari Jaaksi, 770 support is continuing yet this
comment suggests otherwise.


1. htt
ps://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=169#c9


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On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 12:04:20PM +0100, Neil MacLeod
wrote:
> Can anyone from Nokia explain a recent comment[1]
posted by a Nokia 
> employee in Bugzilla? Does the comment apply
specifically (and only) to the 
> game, or to the entire OS 20066/770 platform?

> 1. htt
ps://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=169#c9

That's not the only bug closed with "no fixes for N770
anymore".  See,
e.g.: https:
//maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=329

> According to Ari Jaaksi, 770 support is continuing

Ari's comment that the 770 "is a good product and Nokia
supports it
fully" was made two months ago:
http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2007/0
1/were-getting-some-feedback-and-weve-got.html

The support may have ended only recently.

> yet this comment 
> suggests otherwise.

It would be good to hear the official word on this.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
System going down at 5 this afternoon to install scheduler
bug.

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On Mar 28, 2007, at 8:34 AM, Marius Gedminas wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 12:04:20PM +0100, Neil MacLeod
wrote:
>> Can anyone from Nokia explain a recent comment[1]
posted by a Nokia
>> employee in Bugzilla? Does the comment apply
specifically (and  
>> only) to the
>> game, or to the entire OS 20066/770 platform?
>
>> 1. htt
ps://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=169#c9
>
> That's not the only bug closed with "no fixes for
N770 anymore".  See,
> e.g.: https:
//maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=329
<snip>
> It would be good to hear the official word on this.

Is it possible to get an official or semi-offical word on
this?

Bug 329 has been present since 2005, and was closed last
week with  
the comment,

"WONTFIX. No fixes to N770 anymore."

I'm very unhappy to see long-standing bugs unfixed.

Dr. Jaaksi stated in January that the 770 was fully
supported. A  
reasonable person could infer this meant that currently
identified  
bugs would be fixed.

I don't want to buy a device that is going to be obsoleted
without  
warning or notice.

Regarding the licensing of Opera, the license agreement was
something  
that Nokia negotiated with Opera Software SA. The browser is
 
unquestionably one of the primary features of the device.

I find it very unfortunate that Nokia negotiated a licensing
 
agreement that made it impractical for them to continue
updating the  
primary app of the device - an app which goes out of date
very  
quickly as web development techniques change.

IMHO, Nokia's plans and negotiations should have included
some  
overlap between the two devices, and/or a timeframe during
which  
updates would be provided.

Part of my frustration here is that, since I got my 770 just
before  
the commercial release, parts of the system have always felt
a little  
(or, at time, a lot) like a beta release. Every system
update has  
improved things, often quite significantly. The most recent
770  
release still feels like a beta. Opera still crashes too
much -  
that's why I'm using my N800 significantly more.

I'm still happy with my devices, but when I am asked by
potential  
purchasers for my opinions, I have to warn people. Parts of
the  
system have been unpolished for a very long time, and you
can not  
count on them ever being brought up to release quality. I
used to  
tell people, it gets better with every release. Now I warn
them, it  
gets better until Nokia decides it's time for you to spend
another $400.


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Am Montag, 2. April 2007 08:17 schrieb Quim Gil:
> If you have a better solution please share it.

Is there any chance to have a community maintained release?
If I remember 
correctly some drivers are missing to get there, any chance
to get the open 
sourced?

Thanks,
Rainer

-- 
Rainer Dorsch
Lärchenstr. 6
D-72135 Dettenhausen
07032-359190
email: rdorschweb.de
jabber: rdorschjabber.org
GPG Fingerprint: 5966 C54C 2B3C 42CC 1F4F  8F59 E3A8 C538
7519 141E
Full GPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu/
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Hi,

>Is there any chance to have a community maintained
release? If 
>I remember correctly some drivers are missing to get
there, 
>any chance to get the open sourced?

>From a Nokia 770 customer point of view, any solution
around this device
needs to come sooner than later, since devices get old quite
fast
nowadays. From a Nokia Corporation perspective open sourcing
components
might be a slow process even if all the parties involved
have a clear
and common wish opening a specific source code. If we are
talking about
hardware drivers, the process might be *really* slow.
Therefore, there
are little chances that the solution for 770 customers comes
from Nokia
opensourcing components, really.

The current hacker edition looks like the best candidate to
become a
more continued solution. Some people here have got a deep
look at it.
What do you think? 

On the other hand, it would be useful for everybody to
highlight what
are the hot zones, what theoric solutions can be applied,
which ones can
be discarded and who is responsible of what. Or in other
words: what 770
users are *really* missing today and how this could be
brought to the
device.

Quim
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quim.gilnokia.com wrote:
> Or in other words: what 770
> users are *really* missing today and how this could be
brought to the
> device.

I'm really missing *stable* device. I know this is hard to
achieve but 
the OS2007 hacker edition seems to fix at least one [1]
annoying bug for 
me and feels more stable as a whole.

It would be really nice if we could at least backport
bugfixes in newer 
N800 firmwares to os2007 hacker edition and keep it living
as long as 
possible.

For this it would help if we had more detailed changelog for
each 
release with the bugfix references. True that we could still
examine 
listing [2], extract each source and see debian changelog
and search for 
fixed bugs. This is what I tried when looking for fix for
[3]. I blindly 
upgraded libSDL and osso-dsp-plugin-alsa from 3.1 bora
release. Found 
that it does not solve the problem but luckily it didn't
hurt. libSDL 
was good candidate since -14 version in 3.1 release enabled
back esd for 
audio but it didn't work (even when trying to set
SDL_AUDIODRIVER=esd). 
In future it would be nice to have some hints what packages
are worth 
upgrading (= having bugfixes cross referenced with
packages).

This of course does not solve bugs in closed parts. It would
still need 
someone to do same job like Markku did for first two OS2007
hacker 
releases. Hopefully current version is in good shape.

It would also need some caution when developing future code
to not 
hardcode things for n800 if not strictly needed and branch
if this is 
needed. Is there some outcome from the device independance
plan Ari 
mentioned? Is there some chance the OS2007 code could be
structured in a 
way that makes maintaining n770 branch easier?

As for existing binary packages, is there is a plan to break
binary 
compatibility for n800's own good (like using armv6 or VFP
code in 
some/all packages)? I hope it is not worth the price of
making n770 
incompatible 

Frantisek

1. https:
//maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=743
2. http://repository.maemo.org/stable/3.1/content_com
parison.html
3. 
https://garage.m
aemo.org/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=702&group
_id=164&atid=681
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On 4/3/07, quim.gilnokia.com <quim.gilnokia.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> >Is there any chance to have a community maintained
release? If
> >I remember correctly some drivers are missing to
get there,
> >any chance to get the open sourced?
>
> >From a Nokia 770 customer point of view, any
solution around this device
> needs to come sooner than later, since devices get old
quite fast
> nowadays.

Absolutely right.

> From a Nokia Corporation perspective open sourcing
components
> might be a slow process even if all the parties
involved have a clear
> and common wish opening a specific source code. If we
are talking about
> hardware drivers, the process might be *really* slow.
Therefore, there
> are little chances that the solution for 770 customers
comes from Nokia
> opensourcing components, really.

Understood.

>
> The current hacker edition looks like the best
candidate to become a
> more continued solution. Some people here have got a
deep look at it.
> What do you think?

No, that's totally bogus: a binary-only distro that's
supported by a
community which doesn't have access to the source? Give me a
break.

Instead, how about Nokia get every bit of source used to
build the
last IT 2006 release which it has permission (both internal
and
external) to release in source form together in _one_
_repository_ and
then let the community maintain that.

It would end up being a sort of fork, and we'd need some
help from
Nokia to understand what proprietary components we'd need to
replace
(even if it's just in the form of hints like Igor's about
power
management that I posted a while ago) though obviously real
documentation would be much better. Additionally, keeping
it
compatible with N800 OS releases would be challenging to say
the least
(maybe Nokia employees could help w/ that little bit, like
backporting
fixes to bugs in the public source).

Anything else, from both a end-user and a non-Nokia
developer
perspective, IMO, is just crap.

I mean come on, there are now users of $450 one-and-a-half
year old
devices out there (which didn't work well at all for 1/3rd
of that
time even for basic stuff) that are now being told they also
won't get
"official" fixes for KNOWN BUGS, ever.

Give me a break.

Dave
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David,

your "pain" is that of the proverbial pioneer in
the old West (US) that 
ends up with a few arrows in his/her back. Similar in
concept to the 
"pain" the people are feeling who paid 2X for
HDTV's a year ago that 
were of less resolution/quality/size than the ones available
today for 
1/2x the price.

As I see it, with respect to product support, Nokia is
finding its way 
in this product category, Internet Tablet Computers, which
are 
positioned somewhere between a smart mobile phone and a full
fledged 
server but priced more like a smart mobile phone.

It could be worse. As far as I know, for the Windows Mobile
OS, there 
are no patch releases, and, it seems, at most one feature
pack upgrade 
per major release (e.g. 2003=>2003 SE,
5.0=>5.0+feature pack whatever, 
etc.).  Not only that, because of the vice-grip that the
hand-set supply 
chain (manufacturer=>distributor=>mobile service
provider) has on the 
product, it may not even be possible for a given end user to
get a 
Windows Mobile feature pack, because someone in that chain
is not 
supporting it on the specific handset/mobile service
provider combo in 
question.

In comparison, what Nokia has done is a step forward in my
opinion, 
although Microsoft, of course  is no paragon of perfection
when it comes 
to product support.  I do think Nokia could mitigate this hw

obsolescence problem for some customers, by having a very
generous 
trade-in price to go from the 770 to the N800. In fact, from
a marketing 
perspective this could make a lot of sense for a new product
category 
like the Internet Tablet. That way Nokia would not have to
leave its 
pioneering customers for dead on the "great
plains" of product innovation.
!

Best Regards,

 

John Holmblad

 

Acadia Secure Networks


 



dave.neuerpobox.com wrote:
> On 4/3/07, quim.gilnokia.com <quim.gilnokia.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> >Is there any chance to have a community
maintained release? If
>> >I remember correctly some drivers are missing
to get there,
>> >any chance to get the open sourced?
>>
>> >From a Nokia 770 customer point of view, any
solution around this 
>> device
>> needs to come sooner than later, since devices get
old quite fast
>> nowadays.
>
> Absolutely right.
>
>> From a Nokia Corporation perspective open sourcing
components
>> might be a slow process even if all the parties
involved have a clear
>> and common wish opening a specific source code. If
we are talking about
>> hardware drivers, the process might be *really*
slow. Therefore, there
>> are little chances that the solution for 770
customers comes from Nokia
>> opensourcing components, really.
>
> Understood.
>
>>
>> The current hacker edition looks like the best
candidate to become a
>> more continued solution. Some people here have got
a deep look at it.
>> What do you think?
>
> No, that's totally bogus: a binary-only distro that's
supported by a
> community which doesn't have access to the source? Give
me a break.
>
> Instead, how about Nokia get every bit of source used
to build the
> last IT 2006 release which it has permission (both
internal and
> external) to release in source form together in _one_
_repository_ and
> then let the community maintain that.
>
> It would end up being a sort of fork, and we'd need
some help from
> Nokia to understand what proprietary components we'd
need to replace
> (even if it's just in the form of hints like Igor's
about power
> management that I posted a while ago) though obviously
real
> documentation would be much better. Additionally,
keeping it
> compatible with N800 OS releases would be challenging
to say the least
> (maybe Nokia employees could help w/ that little bit,
like backporting
> fixes to bugs in the public source).
>
> Anything else, from both a end-user and a non-Nokia
developer
> perspective, IMO, is just crap.
>
> I mean come on, there are now users of $450
one-and-a-half year old
> devices out there (which didn't work well at all for
1/3rd of that
> time even for basic stuff) that are now being told they
also won't get
> "official" fixes for KNOWN BUGS, ever.
>
> Give me a break.
>
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-developers mailing list
> maemo-developersmaemo.org
> h
ttps://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers

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On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 16:17 -0400, Acadia Secure Networks
wrote:
> David,
> 
> your "pain" is that of the proverbial pioneer
in the old West (US) that 
> ends up with a few arrows in his/her back. Similar in
concept to the 
> "pain" the people are feeling who paid 2X for
HDTV's a year ago that 
> were of less resolution/quality/size than the ones
available today for 
> 1/2x the price.
> 
> As I see it, with respect to product support, Nokia is
finding its way 
> in this product category, Internet Tablet Computers,
which are 
> positioned somewhere between a smart mobile phone and a
full fledged 
> server but priced more like a smart mobile phone.
> 
> It could be worse. As far as I know, for the Windows
Mobile OS, there 
> are no patch releases, and, it seems, at most one
feature pack upgrade 
> per major release (e.g. 2003=>2003 SE,
5.0=>5.0+feature pack whatever, 
> etc.).  Not only that, because of the vice-grip that
the hand-set supply 
> chain (manufacturer=>distributor=>mobile service
provider) has on the 
> product, it may not even be possible for a given end
user to get a 
> Windows Mobile feature pack, because someone in that
chain is not 
> supporting it on the specific handset/mobile service
provider combo in 
> question.
> 
> In comparison, what Nokia has done is a step forward in
my opinion, 
> although Microsoft, of course  is no paragon of
perfection when it comes 
> to product support.  I do think Nokia could mitigate
this hw 
> obsolescence problem for some customers, by having a
very generous 
> trade-in price to go from the 770 to the N800. In fact,
from a marketing 
> perspective this could make a lot of sense for a new
product category 
> like the Internet Tablet. That way Nokia would not have
to leave its 
> pioneering customers for dead on the "great
plains" of product innovation.
> !

I'm sorry, but while this may be perfectly acceptable from a
commercial
standpoint, the open source community, the embedded OSS
community in
particular, looks at things a bit differently: Look at the
market for
Sharp Zauruii on eBay, and look at all the people putting
Familiar and
OpenZaurus on things like old iPAQs. While the consumer
electronics
industry has an...interesting idea of the depreciating value
of my
several-hundred-dollar handheld device purchase (to say the
least), the
fact remains that the 770 is still a very nice peice of
hardware that
many people paid a lot of money for only to see some things
never work
and now no hope of having those things fixed (if there ever
was any in
the first place, which is doubtful).

On top of all this, the 770 was sold as (and the N800
continues to be
sold as) an open "Linux" device. The cold hard
reality is that Nokia,
for whatever reason, has opensourced enough to get
application
developers to come to their platform. This is a proprietary
approach--with open source there would be an opportunity to
hack on the
system to it's core and make it do things the creators never
intended.
This, after all, is a big part of what Linux and open source
is all
about. Sadly, "Linux" and "open" seem to
be a marketing terms with
respect to these tablets--they are not at all open in the
sense most of
us have come to expect.

Sooner or later, however, this is going to be a moot
discussion, and it
may already be on it's way to becoming such. Capable people
are going to
get tired of non-answer answers (or silence) from nokia.com
and start
reverse-engineering stuff like the power management to get a
truly open
distribution onto the 770--and not this VNC stuff (however
cool it is)
either. I'm a bit surprised, honestly, that this hasn't been
happening
already (at least that I'm aware of).

Andrew

> Best Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> John Holmblad
> 
>  
> 
> Acadia Secure Networks
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> dave.neuerpobox.com wrote:
> > On 4/3/07, quim.gilnokia.com <quim.gilnokia.com> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> >Is there any chance to have a community
maintained release? If
> >> >I remember correctly some drivers are
missing to get there,
> >> >any chance to get the open sourced?
> >>
> >> >From a Nokia 770 customer point of view,
any solution around this 
> >> device
> >> needs to come sooner than later, since devices
get old quite fast
> >> nowadays.
> >
> > Absolutely right.
> >
> >> From a Nokia Corporation perspective open
sourcing components
> >> might be a slow process even if all the
parties involved have a clear
> >> and common wish opening a specific source
code. If we are talking about
> >> hardware drivers, the process might be
*really* slow. Therefore, there
> >> are little chances that the solution for 770
customers comes from Nokia
> >> opensourcing components, really.
> >
> > Understood.
> >
> >>
> >> The current hacker edition looks like the best
candidate to become a
> >> more continued solution. Some people here have
got a deep look at it.
> >> What do you think?
> >
> > No, that's totally bogus: a binary-only distro
that's supported by a
> > community which doesn't have access to the source?
Give me a break.
> >
> > Instead, how about Nokia get every bit of source
used to build the
> > last IT 2006 release which it has permission (both
internal and
> > external) to release in source form together in
_one_ _repository_ and
> > then let the community maintain that.
> >
> > It would end up being a sort of fork, and we'd
need some help from
> > Nokia to understand what proprietary components
we'd need to replace
> > (even if it's just in the form of hints like
Igor's about power
> > management that I posted a while ago) though
obviously real
> > documentation would be much better. Additionally,
keeping it
> > compatible with N800 OS releases would be
challenging to say the least
> > (maybe Nokia employees could help w/ that little
bit, like backporting
> > fixes to bugs in the public source).
> >
> > Anything else, from both a end-user and a
non-Nokia developer
> > perspective, IMO, is just crap.
> >
> > I mean come on, there are now users of $450
one-and-a-half year old
> > devices out there (which didn't work well at all
for 1/3rd of that
> > time even for basic stuff) that are now being told
they also won't get
> > "official" fixes for KNOWN BUGS, ever.
> >
> > Give me a break.
> >
> > Dave
> > _______________________________________________
> > maemo-developers mailing list
> > maemo-developersmaemo.org
> > h
ttps://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
> 
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-developers mailing list
> maemo-developersmaemo.org
> h
ttps://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
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On Apr 2, 2007, at 2:17 AM, Quim Gil wrote:

> On Sun, 2007-04-01 at 13:38 -0400, ext Gopi Flaherty
wrote:
>> Is it possible to get an official or semi-offical
word on this?
>
> Yes, this is what has happened:
> - As Carlos Guerreiro has pointed out previously, there
are no  
> plans to
> make any new official release for the 770. There is the
IT OS hacker
> edition, but it's not official and the official
development in  
> Nokia is
> currently focused in the maemo 3.x, IT OS 2007 and what
is coming  
> next.
> This means that from our side there is no official 770
bug activity.

I appreciate your explanation. I'm curious, though - how
does this  
fit with Dr. Jaaksi's January statement about the 770,
"Nokia  
supports it fully"?

I don't want to sound like I'm playing with semantics, but I
consider  
new official releases to be part of support for a device.
When I read  
Dr. Jaaksi's statement in January, I interpreted it to mean
that  
Nokia intended to produce a new official release of the OS -
most  
likely 2006.

So, I guess I'm asking this:

1. Was Nokia's intention in January to continue working on a
new  
official release for the 770, but something came up that
prevented  
it? (Trouble fixing some of the bugs, testing issues,
reduced  
manpower, etc. etc. - any number of reasonable and
understandable  
things could've happened)

or,
2. Does full support not include software bug fixes?

In case anybody is rusty about what was said:
http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2007/01/were-gettin
g-some-feedback-and- 
weve-got.html

Please don't misunderstand. I think the 770 is a very nifty
device,  
and I've really enjoyed working on it. I'm just unhappy at
the way  
that support appears to have ended without any actual
advance warning  
or overlap between the new device and the previous one.



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